Debate

Sept 16th 2015 GOP Debate Review

I just watched the big debate; I have not watched the early debate yet. The way it started I wanted to shoot Jake Tapper for his idiot questions, then he settled in and I thought overall CNN did far better than FOX did last time at getting meat from the candidates.

I rarely praise CNN for anything but I will give credit where credit is due; they did much better than FOX.

I was glad to hear Bush 43 defended for his National Security leadership after 9/11, only Trump, Carson and Paul were stupid enough to condemn his actions in light of recent history. I was also glad that the Planned Parenthood atrocity was articulated so well by Fiorina and Huckabee instead of just stumping to pull their funding like the others did.

My first takeaway is that Trump did not do himself any favors; as soon as all the others brought their guns loaded he did not stand out as much as a fighter and was exposed as being the least articulate and educated on the job he is seeking. I predicted this would eventually occur, I thought it would be in the last debate but I think the other 3 “outsiders” will begin to take some of his support now.

I like Cruz and Fiorina better than Trump (more about Carson later) but I am very concerned now that I think Trump will decline, the reason is because the GOP can use all of their typical Primary stunts to kill Cruz or Fiorina if they surge. Trump is the only one of the “outsiders” who can afford to fight them effectively, if Trump crashes to earth now the games will begin and we are almost assured an Establishment GOP hack will win the nomination.

Cruz did better but he is still spending too much time talking about the minutia of his resume, his resume is stellar but the practical application of his philosophy today is far more engaging; it is as if he is only talking to those who already understand the superiority of Conservative ideas instead of trying to win over everyone as to why the Conservative ideas are superior.
A large segment of America thinks the current GOP is what “Conservatism” looks like; nothing could be more wrong. Any candidate that wants to win with a meaningful mandate must educate the electorate as to what actual Conservatism is, like Reagan did.

If I had to pick a winner tonight it would be Fiorina, she fires both barrels all the time and somehow manages to never make a mistake; in my opinion that means she believes what she is saying. Fiorina also manages to control the narrative regardless of who tries to derail her. I have been holding off on directly comparing her to Thatcher but I am very close to doing exactly that.

Carson lost me. He does not understand Market Economics as evidenced by his non reform “Tax Reform” plan and his inability to understand that the minimum wage is like a gun to the head of the poor. He thinks Terrorists can be reasoned with, he thinks Democrats can be reasoned with, he seems to embrace all the Racist crap that Obama embraces and just does not think that fighting and defeating the immense forces that corrupt government will be necessary if he got the job.

It is no mistake that I started with Trump, Cruz, Fiorina and Carson; they are the only ones that don’t have a web of ties with the Establishment GOP. In my opinion defeating the Establishment GOP is the step that must be taken before anything of value can occur.

Walker just does not seem to get it; he gets time to speak and seems to say nothing.

Kasich does the opposite; he says a lot and all of it tells me that he would be a disaster as President. He condemns the idea of a “Government Shutdown” then touts the balanced budget he was part of in Congress that was achieved by the Gingrich “Government Shutdown”. He condemns the idea of communicating with the world via actions instead of “talking” and then rewrites history to claim that Reagan did it the Kasich/Obama way. He condemns those of us who know that the Iran deal needs to be trashed ASAP as naïve while considering his own “give Iran a chance” view as enlightened.

Christie did nothing but pander, poorly and embarrassingly in my opinion.

Rubio did a great job but I don’t really trust him due to his history of supporting the Establishment GOP, when he condemns “The Leadership in Congress” it sounds hollow since he mostly just watched Cruz take all the arrows alone. I am seeing Rubio the same way as I saw Santorum in 2012, close but not quite someone I can get behind.

Huckabee did very well, he is the only candidate that is right on the tax issue and he articulated very well the atrocity of throwing Kim Davis in jail. He also handled the Iran deal very well; but I know him too well to trust him or anything he says. Huckabee has very solid ties with the Establishment GOP and that is just too scary and nearly impossible to trust.

Bush did not help or hinder himself; he is proudly sold out to the Establishment GOP and wants to rid the GOP of Conservatives. If Trump becomes irrelevant this early Bush will probably be successful in doing just that, while that would be bad news for 2016 it might correct a lot of issues down the road.

Paul was the naïve child I thought he would be and like Trump said, he had no business even being there since he has rightfully sank to number 11 in the polls.

Well that is my first impression written minutes after the debate ended; I pretty much expected it to go this way except for Huckabee doing well on substance, which surprised me a bit. I expected Fiorina to do the same at the adult table as she did at the kiddy table last time so I was not surprised at her showing but I was pleased. I wish Cruz would hire someone to slam his hand in a car door just before the next debate; he comes off much better when he is mad.

RET423


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About

I am a California native and a Conservative small business owner, or "an enemy to both man and beast" according to my States government. A refuge from the days when the GOP was considered a home for Conservatives, I was recruited in by Reagan and run out by the Establishment GOP. There is never a dull moment in my house and I would not have it any other way.


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  1. I read the article. I think we need more emphasis on picking a winner and less on "RINO hunting."
    In my eyes Rubio made the biggest headway, he looks and sounds like a strong Conservative and a leader, Carly a close second (although some of her hawkish comments oversimplified a serious issue). Bush and Rand Paul made headway in my opinion as well.

    Carson lost some points I think, he might have been feeling the pressure to try and be a leader rather than the underdog he had been.
    I did not see the entire debate, but the couple of hours I did see I was not impressed.

    This seemed too much of a school-yard verbal brawl than a substantive debate to me. SOME meat, but a large portion appeared to be a "Gotcha - gotcha back" word-fest - which was probably precisely what the network wanted.

    I would have preferred SERIOUS questions to individuals on SERIOUS topics and let them respond with enough time (?) to clarify their position. IOW, I could not care less what Bush thought of Trump's statement that "Bush is low energy", and the myriad other questions of like genre'.
    You said a mouthful here, If Trump crashes now, Cruz and Fiorina are the most likely to pick up his support and the Establishment GOP will have big targets on their backs. Any Trump supporters who can put up with his style will definitely not flock to the soft spoken Carson.

    She certainly has the intellect, knowledge, composure and tact of an extraordinary leader. If Fiorina ends up the GOP nominee, I really, really hope the democrats stick with Hillary. She will deliver the coup de grâce, no doubt about it.
    I thought the same as I watched it, though I don't think it garnered a great deal of airtime so I didn't see it as a major issue.

    In regards to them not having substantive discussion, I assume this would be far better if there were say six on the stage rather than the dozen or so they had last night.
    I didn't watch it. It makes me nervous and upset so I rely on you good folks to clue me in. Thanks guys and gals!
    Why do folks here think Carly will be the target for "establishment" knives? Cruz, sure, he's a nutty as a fruitcake, but Carly? I'm as "establishment" a conservative as there is on this board, and I think Carly's articulate, smart, a born leader and, all in all, a real breath of fresh air.
    My initial takes on last night's debate -

    In terms of expectations met and exceeded, Paul made the most positive impression on me. He made the best argument why Trump can't be trusted with the nuclear codes, and exhibited thoughtfulness and temperament on foreign policy issues, in contrast to other candidates' saber-rattling. No, he's not my first choice, but he's the one candidate who, after the debate was over, made me want to take a second look at him.

    Mike and I have both been saying for months that Carly's the one to watch, and she may well have had a breakthrough last night. I didn't initially like her remark that she "wouldn't talk to Putin", but upon reflection I understand her point - Trump's realpolitick schtick lacks principle, and Obama's approach advances the wrong principles. She made a spot-on comment about the need for a non-politician - "Someone who's been in the system their whole life doesn't know how broken it is."

    For me, it's likely going to come down to Carly and Kasich. To me, that's the ultimate ticket - in either order. Also impressing me last night were Rubio and Paul, while singularly UNimpressive were Bush and Carson (though each means well).

    Huck is off my list because of his social conservatism, but if all SoCons were like him, I'd admire the breed.

    Cruz is too extreme and far too willing to fight the wrong battles at the expense of the larger war. It's simply insane to shut down the federal government over funding for Planned Parenthood. Do you want to defund PP? Then elect a Republican President who sign a bill to do so. Shutting down the government just makes it more certain that we'll be slammed for stupidity and ensure the Dems stay in control of the White House.

    Christie was his vintage self, but his time just isn't now. I'd love to see him in a GOP cabinet.

    Walker had a pretty good night - and he had to, because no one's fallen farther and faster. Trump's rise has hurt Walker more than any of the other candidates, as his facile supporters have been seduced by the Dark Side.

    Trump? You all know what I think about him and the fools that support him.
    I agree. In the early debate there were only four of them and it lasted about an hour. It was much more spirited and covered a lot of issues in depth. There was a lot of disparity in the later one and seemed to get away from the moderators.
    ROFLMAO! Are trying to convince us or yourself?

    Carly: What I want to see is HildaBeast go heads up with Carly, now there is a debate worth seeing. I think Carly can slice and dice BildaBeast like a RONCO Bash 'n Chop vegamatic slicer.

    Trump: School yard bully and as good as they come, but the Oval Office is not the boardroom or penthouse executive suite. We watch Trump like we watch the schoolyard bully shove the other guys around in the yard, but we are not friends with him and he will never get our vote for best buddy on campus.

    The players: I would tell them all (except Carly, go GOT IT) that fighting with Trump he may get a bloody nose but you are going to lose, its HIS space, not yours and he has won $10 BILLION times. Go with prime issues and drill down into the detail like Carly did on how many ships our Navy needs, how many Brigades the Army needs, go with the facts and solutions.

    Saw a pic of my dad one time of him and some guys playing music at a dance. WOW dad, did not know you were in a band? Yea, son, me and some guys started playing our senior year in HS, way to make a few bucks in the depression era.

    Cool dad, did you play good? No son we didn't, we weren't good but we played VERY LOUD and people liked us.

    Trump plays LOUD!
    I've watched two or three of Carly's interviews and have come away mightily impressed. She's articulate and intelligent. I could easily vote for her in both the primary and general. Her moves that resulted in 30K layoffs at HP have kept the company alive and kicking where a lot of their competitors crashed and burned to crispy critters. The policies at HP that she put in place are STILL being followed, despite the fact that she was fired in a bitter board-room fight. I've grown to like her and every time I hear her speak, I'm more and more impressed.
    Let me say this about Trump: I would not vote for him. And, the duplicitous argument about Trump not having any experience flies in the face of the mischling kommunistische, whose critics made the case that he had no experience either but was elected TWICE by a stupefied swooning public.
    Folks don't seem to get it.

    Policies be damned, this go 'round. Very few believe what is being said, anyway. The RNC and the DNC are oblivious as to why Trump continues to lead. Pundits keep predicting his demise, as do some, here.

    No, he was not stellar, last night. HE DOESN'T NEED TO BE. He has tapped into the fact that Americans DO NOT TRUST POLITICIANS. Carly clearly had my vote for best showing last night. Trump struggled. Jeb was lackluster. Carson was uncomfortable. Rand was a non factor. Huck was there, only. Walker was flat. Christie had moments, but ineffective. Kasich was scripted. Cruz lacked. Rubio had his best showing, in this race.

    All had brief moments. None, but maybe Carly, shined. None of this matters.

    MDMIke and Jazzhead think anyone not agreeing with them, is stoopid. This is the attitude of the RNC. Any other than Bush, and we become an uninformed electorate. Well guys, get ready to lose your minds, because no matter how good your career politicians perform, they are no more than a dancing bear at the carnival. They could cure cancer, and not get the nod. Why?

    Because the RNC has discounted us for long enough that we have become millions strong. People like Jazzhead and MDMike telling us that our votes are wasted because we didn't toe the party line, and telling us that we are the reason Obozo is in office, has left us loathing and despising the Republican't Party. Nothing suits me more than to stick my finger in Boehner's and McConnell's eyes.

    This election is the final message to the GOP. We gave you the House. Nothing came of it. They said they were powerless without the Senate. We gave them the Senate, and what have they done? Support the leftists. If they get the White House and hold both houses of Congress, and do not produce, look for severe consequences. We're tired of the BS. We're sick of the excuses. and we are fed up with the "business as usual" crowd within the GOP.

    I predict Trump to continue to rise. Why? Because America believes what he says. He is not coached, scripted or rehearsed. Oh sure, he can be a bit foolish, but he sounds like "regular" folk talking politics with our buddies. Jeb, Mario, Huck, Rand, Kasich, Christie, Walker, and Cruz are all damaged goods. They have been too much of the problem, and not enough of a solution. If Trump stumbles, and I cannot see how he wouldn't, it will probably fall to Fiorina. Maybe Carson.

    But the Establishment needs a wake up call. They are not getting this election. They are clueless as to why their typical BS tactics are not working. It is quite simply, that the American People are fed up. Done. Finite. Through.

    This is the 3 outsiders' election, to lose.
    Not at all. There are a host of qualified candidates; if you don't vote for the one I prefer, that doesn't mean you're stupid.

    You're stupid as a fencepost, though, if you vote for Trump.
    LOL. "No, if you don't vote for the one I prefer, you aren't stupid...UNLESS you vote for Trump!" How funny! You've been touting RINOs for the entire time I've been on this board. Christie, Bush III, etc. Anyone who would vote for ANY one of them IS stupid because you'll be handing the White House to the Dems...again. American conservatives are fed up with Democrat-lite and if the morons in the RNC don't get it yet, they are toast hereafter. Trump WON'T get my primary vote, but IF he's the GOP nominee when all the smoke clears, he'll get my vote in the general, regardless of who the Dimwits nominate.
    But what of the other GOP candidates? If one of them is the GOP nominee when all the smoke clears, will you vote for him or her? Or will you be like the many last time around who cut off their noses to spite their faces?
    First of all, Jazz if you are a conservative, I'm Walter Cronkite, You are the most liberal actor to opine on these board. Nobody's 'stoopid' for voting their conscience, please Jazz.

    Sorry to say I do agree with Jazz regarding the rise and articulative Carly Fiorina. The lady doth impress me as well. Cruz got the least air time throughout the gas-fest and was overshadowed by the infighting promoted by CNN. Bush did little to bolster his name, I am sad that Walker is fading fast. BUT as I have said before, The only one looking "Presidential" trump, by a slight margin. ( I said 'looking') The only one to shoot back at the moderators was Christy which probably was his only highlight.

    To the 'Operator' may I say, this to me was the worst yet, run fiasco. It was not a debate but a rooster fight. Their chief aim was to antagonize the panel against each other providing 'sound bites' for liberal consumption.
    Depends. I probably wouldn't vote for either Bush III or Christie, I'm suspicious of Kasich and don't trust Lindsay Graham as far as I could spit a harpoon. I like Carly and Cruz and would love to see them teamed. I'm something of a Jindal fan and like Scott Walker. I don't trust Rubio or Pataki either. In short, I probably would NOT vote for Christie, Bush, Pataki or Graham. I probably would vote for Kasich, Jindal, Scott, Huckabee or even Trump should any of them win the nomination. I would DEFINITELY vote for Cruz or Fiorina. The others are non-entities as far as I'm concerned.
    So you'd rather see Hillary as President than Christie, Bush, Pataki or Graham? How does that help the cause of conservatism? Even a "RINO" President would work with a GOP Congress and wouldn't wield the veto pen.
    AWWWW Jazz----------- Hillary, I doubt, can beat her shadow at this point. Almost anyone in the room can beat Hillary now. You really have no clue about the world of politics, you have shown you have no understanding of religion, law, -what else are you that ignorant on?
    Just like a RINO Speaker of the House would oppose Obozo's plans? Just like the Senate Majority leader would fight against Obozo's agenda? Yeah, right. Neither of them seems to help conservatism. The GOP doesn't impress most folks with their style of conservatism.

    The GOP is as corrupt and morally bankrupt as the Dems are. You just like your brand, better than theirs.

    Hillary is not gonna be there. She's toast. Even if she got the nod, moderates would not pull the lever for her.

    They still don't get it.
    A few points.

    1) The Establishment GOP wants Fiorina to replace Trump because they believe they can use their Party ammunition and Primary structure to crush Fiorina once the voting starts, they probably cannot succeed with these tactics if Trump stays on top; but these liars absolutely despise Fiorina.

    2) I have caught a little heat for praising CNN in this debate so I think I should explain why.

    This is the first debate I have ever seen where I did not feel like any candidate was unable to make their argument, nobody was left hanging or shut down due to structure. I expected the moderator to seed for fireworks because they are after ratings but as long as the fireworks transition into the candidates positions and differences from their competitors I am happy; this debate accomplished that goal.

    3) A debate is supposed to be a fight! If Huckabee really thinks that his own specific ideas that differ from the others are so unimportant that he must keep saying "But I think anyone up here would be a great President" then how can anyone have confidence that he will fight for those ideas if elected? If Carson won't fight for his ideas in a Primary then why would anyone think he would fight for them in the general or before Congress if he wins?

    I care about what is wrong in this nation and I have a very good idea as to what is causing those problems and how to fix them, I will not vote for anyone who thinks fighting these problems is "impolite" or just not important enough to cause a stir.

    I also had not considered Tiny's point about Trump, that he may be teflon at this point just because he is not in bed with the GOP; that may be the case and if it is he will just keep rolling.

    I have been operating on the assumption that Trumps popularity has been fueled by his unwillingness to pander to all the "groups" that everyone says can only be won over by towing the Statist/Socialist line coupled with his understanding of how devastating the illegal immigration situation is and that he is self financed so not beholden to any of the current power players or the GOP.

    I never believed Trump was a Conservative ideologue so I just wanted him to last long enough to PROVE that a candidate does not need to tow the PC line or fear the media that nobody trusts anyway; then I wanted a genuine Conservative to knock him out by fighting the Trump way but on a foundation of Conservative Principles.

    Trump and Carson are both wrong on a lot of important issues, both would have no problem advancing those errors because they are the same errors that are being celebrated today in Washington; but Trump would at least fight for a few good things as well while I think Carson would just whine about how dysfunctional Congress is.

    From a purely logistical point of view it almost has to be Trump or one the Establishment hacks, I don't think any of the other "Outsiders" can protect themselves from the GOP machine. I will break my own rule about voting for Leftists and vote for Trump if he survives the Primary but only as a blow to the GOP, I won't be under any illusions that his Protectionism will help the economy or that his admiration for the progressive income tax will be any less devastating than it has always been.
    I doubt it. Look how much of the DEMOCRAT agenda got passed when Bush II was President and we had a GOP-run House AND Senate! More pork spending than when Clinton was in office, for Pete's sake! Not a single, useless, counterproductive bureaucracy was even REDUCED in size...let alone eliminated.
    I am thinking Trump is nearing turning a corner and I see him on a decline. Watching the schoolyard bully beat up on the little guys like anything else gets boring after time. Trump has no real message other than I will beat you down and I want America to be great again. Ok we watched the beat downs with amusement and applauded at his all America stand, a GREAT combo, but somewhere in there the little ole lady screams out the question..."where's the beef?" Well Trump has LOTS of beef, but not much of it applies to running this country. Sure leveraged buy outs work in business but it won't work for the jobs lost to China or Japan and a host of other problems. Sounds great that we build a fence but in reality fences are crossed by taller ladders.

    I think were I POTUS I would create a DMZ on the US/Mexico border. Far easier than one might think. Most of the land is open space now, bypass any places that are towns and are homes within a few hundred yards of the border and get a 99 year lease on the open land on the border that only gives the Govt access to conduct operations inside of a 100 yard zone. Now beef up the Border Patrol to the point you have manpower on the border that are within contact. We capture them and if they drugs they go to prison, if not they are loaded on the first hot and smokin Greydog Mexico bound. The hell with the fence, what we need is a human fence...

    All Trump does is talk building a fence, but in fact there really is no beef on his sandwich...
    Good post and I have only one, teeny criticism. It's NOT "TOW the line." It's TOE the line--as in putting your toe on the starting line when starting a race, or putting your toes on a line to make the line of soldiers straight.
    Actually, as someone else pointed out to me elsewhere, we had:

    . Low unemployment rates with good paying full time jobs.

    2. An actual strong economy.

    3. Falling annual deficits. From a HIGH of $412.7 BILLION with tax cuts and 2 wars in progress, down to a low of $160.7 BILLION.

    4. GOP tax cuts allowed the MIDDLE CLASS to RETAIN $2.4 TRILLION of their paychecks, while deficit went down 60%. And the rich got to keep $70 billion as well.

    5.obama with a Democrat controlled congress

    2009 $1,412.7 TRILLION DEFICIT. ONE TRILLION MORE THAN THE HIGHEST EVER REPUBLICAN DEFICIT.

    2010 $1,294.4 TRILLION DEFICIT

    2011 $1,299.6 TRILLION DEFICIT

    Republicans take over the house only and the deficit falls almost 30% and continues to fall to this day.
    What is interesting about Carly's rise is that she is the one who was given the greatest gift by Trump when he insulted her looks. Trump had been getting away with a lot of insults and attacks, but his attack on Fiorina will definitely cost him and she wasted no time presenting his opinion with a youtube video meant to galvanize female voters against him. An odd way to put a nail in ones coffin (if this is the beginning of his decline) considering how erratic he has been.

    As a strong economic Conservative, I want far more substance by all runners on how they will deal with the debt. The ceiling has to be frozen surely. It's purely irrational and extremely irresponsible to allow the debt to continue to balloon, it will become a National Security risk if it does (a comment I have made often when describing Ontario's absurd debt levels).

    I think RET made an interesting point that the rise of Fiorina may just be the opening other candidates capitalize on to push Trump off the mantle. The obvious $50,000 question is, who replaces him as front runner if Carly is truly just there for this purpose?

    As much as it may be far from ideal to have so many candidates vying for leadership, it is also a strong statement about the GOP desire to entertain broader viewpoints and discussion. Hell, that's democracy and the debates as imperfect as they are reinforce this.
    Oh please. Carly Fiorina made fun of Boxer's looks when she was running for her Senate seat in CA. It's okay for her to do, but not a guy? Besides which, the context in which Trump made the remark is when her scowling face popped up on a screen during an interview. She looked mean and ugly.

    She still does, if you ask me. She's wants power as badly as Hillary. And just like Hillary, wants the position more than she wants to better this country. For the life of me, I am tired of her rehearsed lines of calling Netenyahu, Putin, and Iran's nutjob of a leader as "first thing she'll do when taking office." Yeah right. But she's said it so often I've memorized it.

    JFTR, here's her pluses and minuses on immigration from Conservative Review:

    https://www.conservativereview.com/2016-presidential-candidates/candidates/carly-fiorina#article-11
    2cent - I'm at something of a loss to understand your antipathy towards Carly Fiorina. Yes, HP laid off 30K people during her CEO tenure...but HP is STILL a viable company with a large share of the computer and accessory market while many of its competitors crashed and burned. The policies that she put in place there are STILL being followed by the current CEO and board of directors, even though they fired her over them. Just curious.
    So his argument is that Fiorina harmed HP, which is a complete lie; Fiorina saved HP

    And his second argument is that Fiorina had relationships with several well known Statist Republicans LIKE THE PARTY NOMINEE IN 2008, which is an argument that would condemn every Republican in the entire Country.

    And he concludes by condemning her for losing to Boxer in California, the ONLY State in the Union to NOT move right in the 2010 Tea Party revolution; we doubled down on Extreme Leftists in every race that year for both local and Statewide offices AND referendums.

    Fiorina beat Devore by kicking his ass in debates and speeches, just as she is doing today in this Primary; she thinks fast and is able to ad lib when opportunities call for it like few since Reagan. It is for this reason that she was in the margin of error just a few days before the election while the rest of our Leftist GOP candidates were nursing double digit deficits.

    Boxer was considered unbeatable so the Party let Fiorina take the hit, she was the ONLY Republican on the California Statewide ballot that I could vote for as all the others were Liberals; she was also the ONLY Republican who made a race out of it.

    This idiot writes an article titled "The Conservative Case Against Fiorina" then does not make one single charge regarding her violating Conservative Principles; even if the HP lie was true it would not be a "Conservative Argument", supporting your Party's nominee for President is not a "Conservative Argument" and losing to a infinitely funded Leftist in a Communist State like California is not a "Conservative Argument".

    I have no doubt that this idiot hates Carly but he is hiding his genuine reason behind a fake excuse of defending Conservatism.
    It is Fiorina who is not genuine. Keep buying her b.s. if you like Ret. I'm not falling for it.

    Just ask yourself this, if you would. Why is the media and the RNC suddenly propping her up?
    Maybe because of her performance? She's kicked butt in two straight debates. I have some reservations, and RET I'm sure has some of his, but I think it'd be a heck of a thing if RET and I ended up voting for the same candidate this year. What was your opinion of Margaret Thatcher? Carly's a tough broad, and smart.
    Because the media thinks they can destroy her with the same tactics that they always use against Conservatives but that keep failing against Trump.

    They do this every election cycle but it is not working against Trump yet, so they are looking for a Conservative that the base will accept to replace Trump, then they can see if the old tactics that get us to keep switching candidates throughout the Primary until a Statist amasses enough delegates to win will still be effective.

    I have been very familiar will Fiorina for many years here in California, she may be new to America but not for me and I have heard all of the Establishment spin against her for many years. She is a stellar candidate and with the exception of holding onto the idea for too long that the illegal immigration issue should be dealt with comprehensively instead of isolating the border security problem first she has been rock solid.

    At this point what other Conservative in this race has shown the ability and the understanding of how to fight like they mean it? I like Cruz but he seems convinced that selling the fights he fought yesterday is a better strategy than just showing us he can fight by starting new ones today against the enemies that are right in front of him.

    Carson is way too Liberal and timid so that leaves Trump who is not very Conservative either although he could probably do some good things, that means the best chance at avoiding another Establishment nominee is going to come down to Trump or Fiorina; given those options I would vote for either in the general but Carly is going get my Primary support.
    Their number one priority is to get Trump out of the race. Once accomplished they will turn on Fiorina and Carson.
    But, of course. The only reason they're propping her up is because bashing Trump isn't working. And when and if they succeed in their goal, they'll drop her like yesterday's news, and move on to Carson - or whoever else might be beating Jebby in the polls.

    But I think they like her more than they do Cruz, Walker, or Trump. I think they'll take Fiorina if they can't get Jeb wedged in there somehow.

    Don't forget, she was a major player in the McCain campaign, and was active in helping Sarah Palin get kicked to the curb.
    This bears repetition. I think that focusing on the depredations of "RINOs" at this stage is wrong. The GOP needs to unite and unite soon. Liberals among my friends (and there are many) are already having a field day with the "17 dwarfs." Reminds me of the Democratic campaign of 1988 and not in a good way. Cruz remains my favored candidate.
    You're right. I'd forgotten about that. Okay, so Palin and Fiorina are probably good to go, but it sure is a curiosity why. And so is Palin's endorsement of her over DeVore. (Maybe 'cuz she's a woman? Just speculating; not accusing.)

    Oh well. You of course may vote for Fiorina if you wish. I will, but only if she gets me a pair of those $750 blue shoes she wore to the debate. Man, they were gorgeous!
    I don't really consider the Establishment GOP "RINO's" since they are the main power brokers in the GOP, it is the Conservatives who are the real "Republicans In Name Only" since they are the group who the GOP is most opposed to in the political realm.

    I will not witness any Conservative candidate this election cycle who will act nefariously to harm the GOP's chosen one, like all campaigns the Conservatives will be trying to make their argument and get the GOP base to choose them over the other Conservative candidates in an honorable way.

    I will however witness the GOP using all of their influence from donor collusion and intimidation, to developing lies as a narrative to push in the media, to having their hack "independent" writers like Coulter and Steyn write hit pieces to keep the Conservative base scrambling between several candidates while their chosen one quietly amasses delegates.

    Conservatives are the primary enemy of the GOP, the power to "unite" is only in the Conservative court if by "Unite" you mean "Sit down, shut up, and take whatever we decide to force upon you"; since that is never going to happen in my case the GOP is just going to have to stop attacking their own base if they want "Unity".

    I would love to be around some Democrats who were mocking this field of GOP candidates while their Party has only a dinosaur Socialist, a Felon and a failed Mayor to choose from and they won't even debate one another; the Democrats are resigned to seeing JOE BIDEN as possibly their 11th hour savior!

    If your friends are having a "Field Day" then you are watching a lot of fastballs sail down the middle of the plate without swinging.

    There will not be unity in the GOP, they will use every point of leverage they have to stop the Conservatives and history has shown that they will probably succeed, that means they will lose even more of their base this cycle than last time.

    The only way to insure that a palatable candidate that can be supported with enthusiasm is atop the ticket to oppose the Democrats puppet is for Conservatives to bring every weapon they have against the Establishment GOP NOW while their is still time.

    There can be no capitulation, there can be no sign of weakness, there can be no utterances made that will lead the GOP to think they can expect unification behind their Statist agenda and candidate; the Establishment GOP must be afraid to even poke their heads out in public and be berated without mercy every time they do if a "win" is to happen in 2016.

    I doubt that Conservatives are angry enough yet to stick with such plan, we tend to reward any sign that our enemies are capitulating a little and lift our feet off the gas; if we do we are screwed.

    Primary's are not for "Unity", Primary's are a fight for the soul of a political party; the ones most committed to their vision are the ones who win these fights.

    The GOP is fully committed to stomping out Conservative influence in America, Conservatives will have to be just as committed to stomping out the Statist vision if we want to win; otherwise we might as well just go home and watch TV while Rome burns.
    I happen to know 2 key players at the national level, they are currently active. They have worked their way up.

    If either one is a conservative then I am a Obama grade liberal. One of them I know VERY well, there is not a conservative bone in their body and I have never seen one if the years I have known them. I was SHOCKED at their climb to national prominence and I was not the only one.

    The GOP is corrupt and full of left leaning statist...
    Latest poll numbers for those wondering how the debate influenced things.

    I was surprised that Paul is still as high as 4%, I would have guessed 3 at best by now; the rest is about what I thought.

    Donald Trump 24%

    Carly Fiorina 15%

    Ben Carson 14%

    Marco Rubio 11%

    Jeb Bush 9%

    Ted Cruz 6%

    Mike Huckabee 6%

    Rand Paul 4%

    Chris Christie 3%

    John Kasich 2%

    Rick Santorum 1%

    Jim Gilmore less than 1%

    Bobby Jindal less than 1%

    Goerge Pataki less than 1%

    Scott Walker less than 1%
    I'm having a hard time believing these polls below the top three or four. In fact, I may have trouble below the top one. That's because Fox News seems to be pushing Carson and Fiorina simply to topple Trump. Whoever they give the most face time seems to be in the top slots.

    When I talk to other voters, I hear a completely different story. I think that the polls will be blasted apart once the voting actually starts. Trump is on top and the rest will be different.

    Most people that I know are for Cruz who seems to gain more support every time he is heard which explains the news blackout on him. He has the most extensive ground game and is only second to Bush in the amount of money raised. Most of his money has come from small donors as opposed to the establishment donor class candidates (Bush and Rubio). Cruz is actually hiding aside because the media has decided to ignore him and his supporters. The press believes that they are pushing the picks. They are pushing the polls and no one has actually voted yet.

    Most people that I know like what Trump has done in this campaign and that is shatter the establishment RINO stranglehold on the process. However, most Conservatives still don't say that he's their preferred candidate.
    Some of the secondary questions on the polls are very revealing. Some, but not all, ask who is your second choice. Also the rankings in Iowa and New Hampshire differ from national rankings, retail politics is not yet dead.