Obama to tell Putin: Time to move past Cold War

[Volk]

It is perfectly within reason to accept the fact that a smaller country would attack a larger one, with a history of military strength, with conventional forces.


Not.

Georgia didn't attack Russia directly, they attacked a separatist region, South Ossetia. There was a truce in place in South Ossetia. There were Russian, Georgian, and Ossetian peacekeepers there under a UN mandate. Georgia broke the truce, thinking that with her political support from the US, Russia would just pull out peacekeepers and not retaliate militarily. They were wrong.

[Volk]

georgiandaily.com - TIMELINE OF RUSSIAN AGGRESSION IN GEORGIA

Very informative.

.

First of all, that source is obviously biased because it is Georgian. I haven't been using Russian sources to prove my claims.

Second, if you look at the part called "III. DETAILED CHRONOLOGY: The Days Before, During & After Russia’s Invasion of Georgia", the timeline stated there is not supported by any sources outside Georgia, as I've said time and time again. It has been agreed by people in the US government, NATO officials, and OSCE observers who were there when the conflict started that Georgia was already invading before Russian troops were moving in, contrary to what this says.

At 23:50 [August 7], for the first time, and in response to the entry of Russian armed forces into Georgian sovereign territory, Georgian armed forces enter military action—using armor, including tanks, 122mm howitzers, and 203mm self-propelled artillery system Dana.

I won't quote it all because it's quite large, but they say that is in response to a Russian tank column moving south of the Roki tunnel (the tunnel from North Ossetia into South Ossetia). As I have quoted and sourced before, Western military experts have not been able to find any evidnence for that claim. Also, we had routine troop rotations for our peacekeeping troops. The sources that I qouted before agree that Russians troops started moving in on August 8th, after almost 12 hours of Georgian artillery fire on Tskhinval.

Since their timeline is not in agreement with any sources outside of Georgia, even those of the countries supporting them, I wouldn't trust this timeline.


Also Bucks, have I cleared up for you that North Ossetia was never part of Georgia?

The Soviet Union's collapse posed particular problems for the Ossetian people, who were divided between North Ossetia, which was part of the Russian SFSR, and South Ossetia, part of the Georgian SSR. In December 1990 the Supreme Soviet of Georgia abolished the autonomous Ossetian enclave amid the rising ethnic tensions in the region, and much of the population fled across the border to North Ossetia or Georgia proper (Across the border to North Ossetia- fleeing into Russia. Some others fled to Georgia proper, in the other direction. This was not meant to mean that North Ossetia was part of Georgia proper).

Bolded text is mine. Italic text shows North Ossetia was part of Russia.

[Fantasy Chaser]

It is perfectly within reason to accept the fact that a smaller country would attack a larger one, with a history of military strength, with conventional forces.


Not.

[Volk]

Already responded to that. They didn't directly attack Russian territory- they broke a truce in place with Russian peacekeepers in the territory (who came under fire) and hoped that we wouldn't retaliate because they're a US ally.

[candygirl]

The Cold War was against communism, of course Obama wants to move past it.

But Putin isn't going to listen to what Obama has to say.

[Volk]

But Putin isn't going to listen to what Obama has to say.

On what issue? I think we can move forward on nuclear arms reduction... although that doesn't make a real difference anyway because we'll still both have more than enough nuclear warheads to blow up the world a few times over. Also, on Afghanistan, Russia has recently agreed to let military supplies for NATO troops move through our territory (previously it was only non-lethal supplies)

As for Obama telling him to take his foot out of the old way of going about business.. that's not really anything specific.

[Susanna]

On what issue? I think we can move forward on nuclear arms reduction... although that doesn't make a real difference anyway because we'll still both have more than enough nuclear warheads to blow up the world a few times over. Also, on Afghanistan, Russia has recently agreed to let military supplies for NATO troops move through our territory (previously it was only non-lethal supplies)

As for Obama telling him to take his foot out of the old way of going about business.. that's not really anything specific.

Nobody is going to listen to Obama unless he tells them what they want him to say. His word is worthless.

[Bucks]

First of all, that source is obviously biased because it is Georgian. I haven't been using Russian sources to prove my claims.

Second, if you look at the part called "III. DETAILED CHRONOLOGY: The Days Before, During & After Russia’s Invasion of Georgia", the timeline stated there is not supported by any sources outside Georgia, as I've said time and time again. It has been agreed by people in the US government, NATO officials, and OSCE observers who were there when the conflict started that Georgia was already invading before Russian troops were moving in, contrary to what this says.

I won't quote it all because it's quite large, but they say that is in response to a Russian tank column moving south of the Roki tunnel (the tunnel from North Ossetia into South Ossetia). As I have quoted and sourced before, Western military experts have not been able to find any evidnence for that claim. Also, we had routine troop rotations for our peacekeeping troops. The sources that I qouted before agree that Russians troops started moving in on August 8th, after almost 12 hours of Georgian artillery fire on Tskhinval.

Since their timeline is not in agreement with any sources outside of Georgia, even those of the countries supporting them, I wouldn't trust this timeline.


Also Bucks, have I cleared up for you that North Ossetia was never part of Georgia?

Bolded text is mine. Italic text shows North Ossetia was part of Russia.

Having a North Ossetia in one country and a South Ossetia in another country is kind of like North Dakota being in Canada and South Dakota being in the U.S., doesn't make sense.

There must be a time when they were both in the SAME country (and NOT an imperialist made up country like the USSR), therefore creating a problem for the citizens of both.


Also, the separatists in South Ossetia shelling Georgia reminds me of Israel and the Gaza Strip. The militants in Gaza constantly shelling Israel and then everybody ganging up on Israel when they responded. Looks similar to Georgia's situation to me.


And Russia being an ally of the separatists in South Ossetia AND a "so called peacekeeper" for them at the same time does NOT make sense.

The Russians were arming the separatists and looking the other way while they used such weapons against Georgia.

.

[Volk]

Having a North Ossetia in one country and a South Ossetia in another country is kind of like North Dakota being in Canada and South Dakota being in the U.S., doesn't make sense.

There must be a time when they were both in the SAME country (and NOT an imperialist made up country like the USSR), therefore creating a problem for the citizens of both.

They were never in the same country during modern history except for as part of the Russian Empire and then as part of the USSR. This is because although both of them are inhabited by the Ossetian people, they are separated by the Caucasus mountains. Besides, don't you think that if North Ossetia was part of the post-Soviet Georgia at one point, and is now recognized as part of Russia, there would be something on the wikipedia page about us conquering it and the rest of the world recognizing it? North Ossetia was never part of this Georgia.

Also, the separatists in South Ossetia shelling Georgia reminds me of Israel and the Gaza Strip. The militants in Gaza constantly shelling Israel and then everybody ganging up on Israel when they responded. Looks similar to Georgia's situation to me.


And Russia being an ally of the separatists in South Ossetia AND a "so called peacekeeper" for them at the same time does NOT make sense.

The Russians were arming the separatists and looking the other way while they used such weapons against Georgia.

.

The difference between this and Israel is that the South Ossetians are not fighting to take land away from another ethnic group, they are fighting for their right to have control of their own land, South Ossetia. They aren't set on conquering Georgia as Hamas is set on conquering Israel.

Another thing is that in this conflict, it is the Georgians that started military action in 1991 (while the USSR was in the process of breaking up but still officially one country). The Ossetians were asking the Moscow government to be a full fledged Soviet Republic instead of being a part of the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic. Moscow refused. Red Army troops loyal to Georgia entered South Ossetia to enforce their control over it and allegedly killed civilians- fighting broke out and eventually the Ossetians won, with support from elements of the Red Army who were not ethnically Georgian and chose to help the Ossetians.

Fighting continued in 1992 and the Ossetians did have support from Russia.

Then a peacefire agreement was brokered, with South Ossetia still officially recognized as part of Georgia, but most of it de facto run by the separatist government.

The peacefire agreement left South Ossetia divided into areas controlled by Georiga and areas controlled by the unrecognised government of South Ossetia. It also created the Joint Control Comission (including Georgia, Russia, North Ossetia and South Ossetia) and, under JCC mandate, introduced the joint peacekeeping forces (JPKF), made up from Georgian, Russian and Ossetian soldiers.

This truce held until 2008. Up until 2008 there were incidents of breaking the terms of the truce on both sides, with exchanges of artillery fire, small arms fire, and Georgia flying UAV's over South Ossetian territory (illegal under the truce) and Russia flying fighter jets to shoot these down (also illegal under the truce).

Then, on August 7th 2008, Georgia started a full-scale invasion of South Ossetia, ostensibly in response to shelling from the Ossetian side. Like most Georgian claims, this shelling is disputed by the international monitors who were deployed in the conflict zone.

Grist's views were echoed and confirmed by Stephen Young, who was another senior OSCE official in Georgia at the time. According to him, there had been little or no shelling of Georgian villages on the night Saakashvili’s troops began their onslaught on Tskhinvali. Young added, that if there had been shelling of Georgian villages that evening as Georgia has claimed, the OSCE monitors at the scene would have heard it.

Russias counter attack began on August 8th, and on August 10th Russian troops together with Ossetian militiamen pushed the invading Georgians out of Tskhinvali. The Russian advance didn't stop until August 12th, but major combat stopped on the tenth, after which Georgian troops retreated from Russian forces on sight, leaving parts of Georgia proper under our occupation for a short while after the conflict.

I want to stress the point made above that again, western observers are skeptical of Georgia's claims that they were being shelled. Almost all of Georgia's claims about the conflict have been contested by NATO, OSCE, and EU officials, as I showed on previous pages. This is no exception.

[Bucks]

As I said sounds like Gaza and Israel.


.