Pickens fastasy

[Fantasy Chaser]

There is no technology to develop..its already out there and working...albeit in a small way.
The principal problems inhibiting widespread adoption of Natural Gas for vehicular use are:

a. Lack of refueling infrastructure...although systems are available today for installation at your home (provided you have Natural Gas) for overnight filling
b. Conversion of existing gasoline powered vehicles to NG. Costs are high principally due to governmental / permitting issues
c. Exists only one car (honda civic) as an OEM natural gas vehicle, in todays marketplace

Then let capitalism deal with it if it's so viable. You don't even need to convert existing cars to NG. Just let the manufactures produce them as they are willing to gamble on their use. And you don't need that massive a refueling network to start it out with; plenty of commuters would be willing to deal with just a few outlets in their own big cities, which is where it is more profitable to start anyway.

Reason suggests that natural gas will NEVER get more expensive than gasoline....at current energy equivalence the price of gasoline is roughly 3.5 X the cost of natural gas (MCF)

As for diesel....again the reason there is more a result of very restrictive (low sulfur) governmental requirements vs. usage. What drastic increase in the use of diesel (over gasoline) have we experienced that would suggest the price increase has been due to increased usage?

The price of diesel in Europe is lower than gasoline and they use a LOT more diesel for personal vehicles than the US does.

My money is on supply and demand. And not (voluntarily) on a Government investment.

[Slipangle]

I'll be perfectly honest... A part of me would love to have an opportunity to start my own business related to my car restoration hobby, particularly with 1955-6 Mercury's, and dual-fuel natural gas conversions sounds like it would be just that kind of opportunity, but on reading about what would be required... I'd only do it if I could get governmental assistance.

Here's the thing with it all: OBD-II is mandatory. I could stick a propane tank in the trunk and run a hose down the carbureator and do a basic conversion (yes there's more to it than that) but for OBD-II, I would need a computer and a system of sensors that doesn't exist in these cars... And there's testing and regulatory bureaucracy to go through associated with that.

That propane tank in the trunk? FMVSS would require crash testing.

These are of course requirements that didn't exist when the cars I'm interested in were built, and they can be street legal because they're granfathered - but as far as I can tell, the law as written wouldn't allow these cars to be converted...

Maybe I'm reading something wrong or missing something, it isn't overly different than adding a nitrous system.

[NWtrainman76]

My basic question is everyone of these politicans are crying middle class. What about the poor person that drives a 89 Camry or a 85 Ford F150? These people receive SSI SSA, or Welfare. They can't afford to transform they're vehicles to a CNG or Hybrid vehicle. And changing these vehicles aren't cheap.

As for Pickens plan I agree we should be producing our own energy. BUT what is in it for him. And Pelosi has a interesting portfolio with alot of investments in wind power. If she gets her way she'll hit the lottery.

[smichellem]

Yep. That's it in a nutshell NWt

[Slipangle]

What I'm finding is that cost of conversion is in the $2000-$3000 range. That was the price of a typical starter car around 5 years ago which is the last I bought used.

That's the fully EPA compliant version of course too, you can convert an electric generator for $188 - which is less than the price of a typical death trap car.

With that said, taking demand away from gasoline would help the price of gasoline.



....


Now, while we're loosely on the topic of cars, what wonderful timing Hollywood has to dredge up the 40 year old case of how Ford screwed over the guy that invented intermittent windshield wipers, just what the American auto industry needs, another media hit-piece. (Flash of Genius if you haven't seen the ads)

[NWtrainman76]

Yeah but you will never stop use of gasoline engines unless you start fazing them out. Automakers aren't doing that. I really don't think we'll see a Alternative fuel in the majority in my lifetime.

Like that gimmick they call E85. If you do the math at a certain point E85 costs more the Reg Gas. Not to mention Ethanol drives up the cost of everything made of Corn.

What I figured before I bought my HHR. E85 cost more then Gas @ around 1500 miles.

[Fantasy Chaser]

Yeah but you will never stop use of gasoline engines unless you start fazing them out. Automakers aren't doing that. I really don't think we'll see a Alternative fuel in the majority in my lifetime.

Like that gimmick they call E85. If you do the math at a certain point E85 costs more the Reg Gas. Not to mention Ethanol drives up the cost of everything made of Corn.

What I figured before I bought my HHR. E85 cost more then Gas @ around 1500 miles.

I heard about E85. Unless I missed something, it or pure ethanol (or even 10% ethanol) has this little problem with water absorbtion...

[Slipangle]

Yeah but you will never stop use of gasoline engines unless you start fazing them out. Automakers aren't doing that. I really don't think we'll see a Alternative fuel in the majority in my lifetime.

Like that gimmick they call E85. If you do the math at a certain point E85 costs more the Reg Gas. Not to mention Ethanol drives up the cost of everything made of Corn.

What I figured before I bought my HHR. E85 cost more then Gas @ around 1500 miles.

The basic concept of the internal combustion engine is not that difficult to adapt, mechanically anyway, from one hydrocarbon to another. Particularly when you have computer controlled ignition and fuel injection. Your major mechanical hurdles are ensuring that you aren't going to deteriorate seals and the burn temperature and pressure of a different fuel aren't going to exceed the capacity of your materials - On older cars such as I deal with, this is a problem we've faced when leaded gasoline was discontinued.

Ethanol can come from vegetative resources other than corn too, Brazil very successfully uses sugar cane - Most of America isn't the right climate for sugar cane, but there are two points - diversifying the types of hydrocarbons that can fuel our vehicles is the way to go, and even if ethanol drove up the price of corn, we're diverse enough beings that we can eat something else. It's all very capitalistic, I'm all for competition for what goes in the gas tank.

[NWtrainman76]

The basic concept of the internal combustion engine is not that difficult to adapt, mechanically anyway, from one hydrocarbon to another. Particularly when you have computer controlled ignition and fuel injection. Your major mechanical hurdles are ensuring that you aren't going to deteriorate seals and the burn temperature and pressure of a different fuel aren't going to exceed the capacity of your materials - On older cars such as I deal with, this is a problem we've faced when leaded gasoline was discontinued.

Ethanol can come from vegetative resources other than corn too, Brazil very successfully uses sugar cane - Most of America isn't the right climate for sugar cane, but there are two points - diversifying the types of hydrocarbons that can fuel our vehicles is the way to go, and even if ethanol drove up the price of corn, we're diverse enough beings that we can eat something else. It's all very capitalistic, I'm all for competition for what goes in the gas tank.

It still doesn't change the fact E85 destroys your fuel economy. Not to mention costs more to use in the long run then reg gas.

I am strongly opposed to driving up food prices to fuel vehicles. Which has happen. And to say just eat something else is naive seeing corn prices effect Poultry, Beef, Egg, Milk, and other items prices. Corn prices reflect to alot of food items other then cornflakes.

[Susanna]

Furthermore, the more you use products created from organics, the more you take away from the food supply.