Pickens fastasy

[samspade]

I am sure that we all have seen or heard of T.Pickens who has been promoting alternative energy and telling us we need to switch to natural gas because it is cheaper.

Now if I remember my economics classes that I took in college if the demand goes up the supply has to either go up or what happens is that the price will rise as well and who is on the ground floor for this?

Yep Pickens who stands to make a lot more money if he can convince you to go with natural gas to power cars and other stuff.

T. Boone Pickens and Perseus Investing $160M in Natural Gas Vehicle Earth2Tech

[Bucks]

There’s a reason there aren’t many of these natural gas vehicles out there yet — the technology has a few hurdles to jump.

First off, natural gas vehicles commonly have a shorter range than their gas counterparts; the Honda Civic GX has a fuel mile range of 170 miles.

Secondly, there’s a lack of natural gas distribution; according to the natural gas vehicle trade group the Natural Gas Vehicles for America (NGVA) there are more than 1,100 U.S. stations.

While Pickens looks ready to invest in building out this infrastructure (he’s the country’s largest private owner of natural-gas fueling stations through Clean Energy Group according to this Newsweek article), it will need a lot more investment than the funds of a green-leaning former oil guy.

Perhaps, OUR TAX money ????????????

There is a reason for those TV ads.
.

[Newman]

I do tend to agree with the basic premise of his ads, but at the same time the little guy in the back of my head is wondering how much money Ol T Boone stands to make if we swich cars to CNG....hehe

[smichellen]

And, now it's clear that some others are joining him quickly to get in on the ground floor op. too.

Those ads are starting to annoy me. It seems very carefully worded in order to bring everyone on both sides together. I can't help but laugh when he points out how cheap his plan is. Like we don't understand how quickly the prices will rise once everyone switches over.
I am all for the spirit of free enterprise. I am just skeptical because of the govt control involved in these things making it not so much of a free enterprise. Am I wrong here? Maybe I am just paranoid because of Pelosi's interest/investment in this plan of his. Call me crazy.

Also, with Obamma's plan of I forget how many billions to give towards energy alternatives I am a bit concerned. More govt subsidies to people and programs like this.

[Bucks]

If it's all about free enterprise why does he need to make a TV ad ????

I suspect he wants government subsidies to "help" promote and help make the whole program profitable for him.

Free enterprise is all about the "private sector" investing THEIR money to make more money.

From this post;Nancy Pelosi & T. Boone Pickens make$$$$$

T. Boone Pickens plan involves the private control of water, which Pickens wants to be able to sell to big cities via giant water pipelines which will be built on land seized under eminent domain...................

LINK

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[smichellen]

The links you posted above are the ones that let me know my gut feeling was correct about his "plan" to save us.
Thanks.

[Susanna]

Like we don't understand how quickly the prices will rise once everyone switches over.

Remember how the price of diesel fuel sky-rocketed when they started building cars that would use diesel fuel? Before that, diesel was less than half the price of regular gasoline.

[nexenrod]

I don't know about you guys...but I'm getting tired of paying $4/gal for gasoline.
As Pickens states....Natural gas is domestic....it's a hell of a lot cleaner....it's abundant and getting more so with all the developing shale plays throughout the US...its easier on your engine and its CHEAP compared to Gasoline.

The technology is available...its ready to go...no R&D to worry about. The only real issue is distribution. If you have Natural gas at your house, they already sell a unit that allows you to fill it up overnight.

People in Utah are using Natural gas at a cost of $0.85 / Gal. (equivalent to Gasoline)

What's the downside? Why do you care if TBP makes money? The guy is already worth 4+ BILLION. When did Republicans every care about anybody making money, that sounds like a democrat.
He's offering a plan....something that our sorry politicians haven't done, and I think its a damn good one.

[Fantasy Chaser]

Originally Posted by nexenrod

I don't know about you guys...but I'm getting tired of paying $4/gal for gasoline.
As Pickens states....Natural gas is domestic....it's a hell of a lot cleaner....it's abundant and getting more so with all the developing shale plays throughout the US...its easier on your engine and its CHEAP compared to Gasoline.

The technology is available...its ready to go...no R&D to worry about. The only real issue is distribution. If you have Natural gas at your house, they already sell a unit that allows you to fill it up overnight.

People in Utah are using Natural gas at a cost of $0.85 / Gal. (equivalent to Gasoline)

What's the downside? Why do you care if TBP makes money? The guy is already worth 4+ BILLION. When did Republicans every care about anybody making money, that sounds like a democrat.
He's offering a plan....something that our sorry politicians haven't done, and I think its a damn good one.

I think that natural gas for Joe Average Driver is going to be problematic from a refueling standpoint. Gasoline and deisel are pumped, but not stored under pressure. Leaks, improper connections, etc. are what I would expect.

[billybigrigger]

With out a doubt Pickens plan to make money with this. His plan is to cut the use of natural gas in the generation of electricity and instead use it to power mostly commercial vehicles to start. Their are 8 million natural gas power vehicles in the world now. They have been using natural gas in buses for years. 40 years ago they were used to power heavy trucks. I think it is insane to generate electricity with natural gas, we need to use Nuclear, Hydro, Coal, Solar, and Wind to generate electricity. We need to hook more homes up to natural gas particularly in the North East were most homes are heated with diesel fuel. Theirs lots of natural gas.

[Bucks]

Originally Posted by nexenrod

I don't know about you guys...but I'm getting tired of paying $4/gal for gasoline.
As Pickens states....Natural gas is domestic....it's a hell of a lot cleaner....it's abundant and getting more so with all the developing shale plays throughout the US...its easier on your engine and its CHEAP compared to Gasoline.

The technology is available...its ready to go...no R&D to worry about. The only real issue is distribution. If you have Natural gas at your house, they already sell a unit that allows you to fill it up overnight.

People in Utah are using Natural gas at a cost of $0.85 / Gal. (equivalent to Gasoline)

What's the downside? Why do you care if TBP makes money? The guy is already worth 4+ BILLION. When did Republicans every care about anybody making money, that sounds like a democrat.
He's offering a plan....something that our sorry politicians haven't done, and I think its a damn good one.

Maybe you did not read my post above. The problem I have is, HE WANTS GOVERNMENT MONEY and or assistance. If he uses his own money I don't give a .........
.

[nexenrod]

There are BILLIONS of dollars of taxpayer monies going towards ETHANOL, SOLAR, WIND, HYDROGEN......thats the only way they can be viable.

I think the government incentives (rebates) for natural gas vehicles are more in the line of rebates if you buy a car. Rebates if you CONVERT a car and probably some assistance with companies willing to invest in refueling stations, etc.

Not only is Pickens all over this but another CEO, Aubrey McClendon of Oklahoma City based Chesapeake Energy and his CNGnow organization beginning to promote natural gas as a better alternative than gasoline as a transporation fuel.

It's coming.....and it makes sense. If these guys make money off of it, good for them for getting in early.

[Fantasy Chaser]

Originally Posted by nexenrod

There are BILLIONS of dollars of taxpayer monies going towards ETHANOL, SOLAR, WIND, HYDROGEN......thats the only way they can be viable.

I think the government incentives (rebates) for natural gas vehicles are more in the line of rebates if you buy a car. Rebates if you CONVERT a car and probably some assistance with companies willing to invest in refueling stations, etc.

Not only is Pickens all over this but another CEO, Aubrey McClendon of Oklahoma City based Chesapeake Energy and his CNGnow organization beginning to promote natural gas as a better alternative than gasoline as a transporation fuel.

It's coming.....and it makes sense. If these guys make money off of it, good for them for getting in early.

If it takes billions of taxpayer dollars, then no, it isn't viable. If it's such a doubtful bet that it can't attract private capitalist investment, then it's an economic nonstarter, at least at the current level of technology.

[nexenrod]

There is no technology to develop..its already out there and working...albeit in a small way.
The principal problems inhibiting widespread adoption of Natural Gas for vehicular use are:

a. Lack of refueling infrastructure...although systems are available today for installation at your home (provided you have Natural Gas) for overnight filling
b. Conversion of existing gasoline powered vehicles to NG. Costs are high principally due to governmental / permitting issues
c. Exists only one car (honda civic) as an OEM natural gas vehicle, in todays marketplace

[Susanna]

Another negative for using natural gas for cars - it will cause the price of natural gas to sky-rocket - including that you use for your home cooking and heating.

Anyone remember when diesel fuel cost less than half as much as gasoline - and when the price started inflating rapidly?

[nexenrod]

Reason suggests that natural gas will NEVER get more expensive than gasoline....at current energy equivalence the price of gasoline is roughly 3.5 X the cost of natural gas (MCF)

As for diesel....again the reason there is more a result of very restrictive (low sulfur) governmental requirements vs. usage. What drastic increase in the use of diesel (over gasoline) have we experienced that would suggest the price increase has been due to increased usage?

The price of diesel in Europe is lower than gasoline and they use a LOT more diesel for personal vehicles than the US does.

[Susanna]

Originally Posted by nexenrod

Reason suggests that natural gas will NEVER get more expensive than gasoline....at current energy equivalence the price of gasoline is roughly 3.5 X the cost of natural gas (MCF)

As for diesel....again the reason there is more a result of very restrictive (low sulfur) governmental requirements vs. usage. What drastic increase in the use of diesel (over gasoline) have we experienced that would suggest the price increase has been due to increased usage?

The price of diesel in Europe is lower than gasoline and they use a LOT more diesel for personal vehicles than the US does.

Diesel prices started increasing immediately upon the manufacture of cars using diesel. Possibly (if you are right) the government restrictions on sulfur content was dictated for auto usage.

On the other hand, if most new cars are manufactured to use natural gas, you don't think the price will be increased? It'll be a new cash cow. Besides, how do we know how much natural gas will be consumed by the average car, as opposed to natural gas? And how can you relate MCF to gallons?

[Susanna]

And when most cars are running on natural gas, someone will start telling us we are running out of natural gas. Is it a fossil fuel, or not? Most likely it is.

[nexenrod]

of course natural gas is a "fossil fuel"...you've got to drill for it.

You are not going to convert all cars to natural gas....even to get to something like 20% of all vehicles would take 10-15 years. It's not something that will happen like flipping a switch.

Of course the cost of natural gas will probably go up....but as I've explained, it's got a LONG way to go before it approaches the cost of gasoline. It's domestic and we are discovering more of it every day in this country.
The numerous advantages are just to difficult to overlook. You WILL see increasing numbers of NGV in the future, but again, we have so few now that just doubling are current numbers will take us to only 300,000 vehicles which is less than a drop in the bucket.

Also, as per WIKI....

GGE (or Gasoline gallon equivalent) is the amount of alternative fuel it takes to equal the energy content of one liquid gallon of gasoline. CNG for example, is a gas rather than a liquid, its volume is measured in cubic feet (CF), rather than in gallons. GGE is a way of comparing equivalent amounts of fuel based on their energy content.
One GGE of natural gas is 127.77 cubic feet. This volume of natural gas has the same energy content as one US gallon of gasoline (based on lower heating values: 900 btu /CF of natural gas and 115,000 btu/gallon of gasoline).
One GGE of cng pressurized at 2,400 psi is 0.77 cubic feet. This volume of cng at 2,400 psi has the same energy content as one US gallon of gasoline (based on lower heating values: 148,144 BTU/CF of CNG and 115,000 BTU/gallon of gasoline. Using Boyle's law, the equivalent GGE at 3,600 psi is 0.51 cubic feet which corresponds to 14.5 liters or 3.82 actual US gallons.
The National Conference of Weights & Measurements (NCWM) has developed a standard unit of measurement for compressed natural gas, defined in the NIST Handbook 44 Appendix D as follows: "1 Gasoline [US] gallon equivalent (GGE) means 2.567 kg (5.660 lb) of natural gas.

[Bucks]

Environmentalists seem to be against the U.S. being energy independent. They are against Nuclear, Oil, Refineries and on and on...........

For every proponent of LNG, there seems to be an opponent.

(clip)
But for the huge tankers that carry natural gas around the world, this Mexican village is perfect: close enough to the United States to pump their volatile cargo over the border but remote enough that a leak, explosion or terrorist attack wouldn't pose a threat to the USA.

The companies say that their decision to go over the border has nothing to do with safety and that they are mainly drawn by the ability to sell gas in two countries at once.

But the foreign sites are also a way of bypassing opponents in American cities who are jittery about the prospect of gas tanker ships on their shores.

"Everyone is concerned that LNG is a combustible material, and they don't want it anywhere near them," said Alex Steis, managing editor of Natural Gas Intelligence, a trade publication. (clip)

Foreign sites sought for natural gas ports - USATODAY.com