About That Economic Collapse

When was that supposed to happen? About the time Obama took office, as I recall?

Wall Street Hits Record Highs as Tech Earnings Crush Expectations[SIZE=3]”[/SIZE]
Wall Street Hits Record Highs as Tech Earnings Crush Expectations - NBC News

It’s coming, but unfortunately the TPP still hasn’t been passed, so we’re having to wait.

With many Americans expecting government handouts, it won’t happen until the benefits stop flowing. That’s why we are headed down the toilet if Hillary is elected.

If I owed the same percentage of my yearly pay as our country does, I could declare bankruptcy. But probably I would keep borrowing more & more just to keep myself afloat until one day I couldn’t borrow any more. Our country has the option that I wouldn’t have which is just to raise taxes. Add a social program, raise taxes. Add another social program, raise taxes again. Socialist countries that can’t get by on 40 to 60 percent of citizens incomes just create even more taxes like on gas or value added taxes. People do get used to having a lot less. I just don’t want to be one of those people.

How about the 1% increase in GDP report that was issued today? How was that for anemic? We’ve got to get something going with our national economy.

How about the first 7 years of a crushing economy and the fact the middle class is all but gone and the only people who have prospered have been the upper 1% and the lower 1/3 that suck the marrow out of the taxpayers bone thru welfare and other means tested benefits.

Just my thoughts: There are so many truths, half truths & yes lies about money that there isn’t time left in my life to cover even most of them but I’ll hit on a few that bother me.
The market hit a new high so the rich are getting richer. Ah, maybe yes maybe no. The DOW is made up of 50 stocks & if you don’t own any of them you could have lost money. It’s happened to me more than once. As a matter of fact I’m down since Obama took office. That’s not to put the blame on him, just saying that in the last 8 to 10 years I have lost money in the stock market. Lost as in before that I had more money.
The rich just get richer. That is pretty much true, but why? They get richer because they have money left over after paying monthly bills & they INVEST it. Most people could do the same (I did) BUT they would have to cut their standard of living. Here’s an interesting fact. If a person makes 35,000 per year & they break even each year, if they get a 5,000 raise they will still break even. That’s human nature for most people. What your income is isn’t as important as what you do with it. Most people poop it away on crap.
The 1%ers take your money. Well that’s mostly true because 70% of them do take your money. Those 70% are your doctors, lawyers & basically anyone that sells their knowledge or skills to you at a higher price. You see what’s being sold is that they were born with a silver spoon in their mouths & so they somehow don’t deserve that income. Try telling that to the surgeon that works 16 hours a day & then is called in for an emergency operation after 3 hours of sleep. Tell that to the lawyer that gets an innocent man off from being convicted for a crime he didn’t commit. So mostly those 1%ers do earn their higher pay just like most of us that toil in the trenches each day doing the best we can.
The middle class is almost gone. Somewhat true in that it isn’t what it was. But here’s an interest thing to consider. Our poor are better off than many middle class in other countries. But lets get back to that middle class. What happened? Probably lots of things came together but here’s my number 1. We did it to ourselves. We as a society started demanding more wages than our work was worth. In the 70’s I was watching a show on building cars. The guy that put 2 nuts on a bumper was making more in a week than I was in a month & I had a skilled job. What happened was that when car makers were making lots of money the workers demanded & got huge raises no matter what they did. Overseas workers worked for less btw. So when the demand went down contracts signed when money was plentiful started killing the industry. People were let go, less people could afford new cars, & all of a sudden companies were looking on how to save money & still stay in business. Oh as I’ll throw in that car quality for American cars was shit back then. Just look at the number of VW bugs on the road from that time & compare it to the number of Ford Falcons. American wanted more money for turning out a worse product. It used to be that we could charge more money because we had better products.
Credit & I deserve: Probably the 2 biggest reasons for our middle class being where it’s at. I work hard so I should have a Big Screen TV (or whatever toy they want), I’m entitled. Oh & I don’t want to wait for it, I want it now. And so we charge or finance our way to a better life. A life where debt keeps us from ever getting ahead in life. Save & pay cash for it, hell no I want it now. And you pay for it with money you haven’t earned yet plus you pay interest on that money. I’ve known people that have all kinds of “stuff” & they pay 20% of their total income on nothing but interest. No rich person is stealing from them, they are standing in line to give away their money. It seems blaming yourself for the mess your in is out of style. Try doing a search on what the average American household owes because of this attitude. We could mostly live debt free but we don’t because we deserve “stuff”.
Back in the 70’s (I think it was) the American farmers were going bankrupt at an alarming rate. A friend of mine was retiring from the A.F. & his plan was to go back & work his father in laws farm & take it over when the guy retired. I thought it was a pretty dumb plan with what I was hearing about farms failing. He explained that his FIL had never fallen into the debt trap that all farmers seemed to fall into. Expensive tractors, combines & such with payments for 10 or 15 years & then writing off the interest etc. didn’t make sense to him (spending 100 dollars to save 10 in taxes). He still had horses & used plows, heck he didn’t even use chemicals to kill pests. Basically he farmed like they did why back when. The result was that when prices where high he made a lot of money. When prices were low he still made money. He had never had a year where he lost money & he invested long term the money he made. So farms were folding all around him & because you couldn’t make money farming the land value dropped like a rock. He needed his son in law because he was buying all the land around him. He was wise with his business & his money. Seems like most people now days could learn from him.


The rising stock market is the result of ZIRP and repeal of Glass-Steagel. Banksters take their Fed Free Money and run riot in the stock markets. This skews the true market, as these institutions are buying with OPM, buying without risk-to-themselves, and buying without discretion.

Drives up the price. And long after Barry has gone, we’ll find out WHY Glass-Steagel existed, and why having banks use others’ money buying securities, is dangerous, not a wise use of borrowed or depositors’ money, and corrosive of the capital markets.

As for beating expectations…ho, hum. Just shows, once again, that the experts don’t know all. Or that they deliberately mis-prognosticated, for just this reason.

Like the Left’s endless buzz-phrase - “…RECORD EARNINGS…” If Nasty Brothers Oil Co. makes $50 more this year than last, and last year was its best year…then this year it had “record earnings.” Which in constant dollars may be less, not more, than the previous year.

"Back in the 70’s (I think it was) the American farmers were going bankrupt at an alarming rate."

Back in the 70’s I was dating a girl who father had a farm/ranch. Her dad really liked me and hoped I would be THE son in law to carry on the family business. He had 8000 acres.

He made so much money you would not believe it…as he told me, every day he steps out of his house he makes a $1000 bucks over and above what his property will make.

I remember talking with him and asking how he did so well as farms and ranches are going out of business across the US.


I don’t run more cattle than my land will support, my feed costs are extremely low.

I only grow fast moving crop, watermelon, cantaloupe, squash etc, its grows fast and moves fast.

I have no workers to run my place, if I need help I hire only short term and seasonal.

He would take me with him sometimes and to see him sell was a true learning exp for me. He sold mostly direct to the food stores in Dallas-Ft Worth.

One example: He had a load of cantaloupe and his stuff was primo. We drive into a better section of DFW and stop and he picks out about 3 or so of his best 'loupe’s and places them on the trailer. We drive down to the back of a high end grocery and he goes in to find the Produce Mgr. He brings him out to the trailer. He doesn’t say much, he picks up on of the loupe’s he had placed and whips out his knife, holding his hand under it, he cuts it open, juices running down his hand and dripping. He cuts out a chunk and tells the Produce Mgr to eat this. He does and its juicy and sweet. Then he tells him what he wants for the load (which he had stopped off and had weighed), SOLD!

He dressed in old faded coveralls, drove a a rather rough looking but very well maintained 3500 series truck, but the rust and dents would fool you. I never went out that we did not come home with over $1000 dollars in cash and checks.

The reality was that many of those that lost their farms and ranches had in fact borrowed money against them and % rates killed them, they could not sell and pay off debt.

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Some time ago I was posting about money management (maybe have been here or somewhere else) & someone piped up & said yes but that was the OLD DAYS, you can’t do that now. I agreed with them because if you don’t try & if you don’t believe you can do it, it just isn’t possible. The truth is that if you put 50 away every month, don’t build up debt & do that for 10 years it’s impossible for you not to be better off. Invest that 50 & even in an average market you will be much better off. Start when your 20 & invest even 10% of your pay in the stock market & at 60 & people will put the term multi in front of millionaire when talking about you. Back when I started investing I ran the numbers & didn’t believe them but I still invested. Even though I started late & couldn’t put in for the whole time (rules changed) I did better than my projections (at least I was up that much before the last time it dropped).
People talk about it’s impossible to reach the American dream any more. It’s not, you just have to dream the right things. Being comfortable later in life to where you can do what you want, I did it. If I wanted to take 3 or 4 cruises a year I could afford it. And I got to where I am by investing small amounts over a long period of time (wish it had been more over a longer period of time but it took me a while to smarten up). Oh & lastly & I can’t stress this enough, over all those years I never made close to an “average” American wage (until after I retired). The same thing can be done now & I believe that it’s even easier because there’s a lot more info on investing out there.

Half of the population is on government assistance and the workforce participation rate is at Great Depression levels with 100 million out of work in a nation of 300 million, the debt is at 20 Trillion dollars while the economy is growing at an anemic rate of 1.5% that is not even keeping pace with inflation.

I would say the Obama economic destruction happened just as predicted, but it is true that his banker friends have done quite well.

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The banksters are not his friends. They are his tools.

First, by doing what he has done…he has channeled wealth and resources from PRODUCTIVE uses, by entrepreneurs and other businessmen, to the Money-Changer class. Financial gamers and manipulators. And they recognize why they are getting all this money for essentially no work; and they give heavily and support reliably.

But that’s only part of it. Demagoguery cannot exist without demons. And these are the American Left’s manufactured demons; and when the time is right, they will be DESTROYED. The way the Nazis destroyed the Jewish upper-middle class.

This is the mental illness and chaos the Left suffers and wants and works to spread.

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Tech is one of the areas of the economy doing reasonably well (just don’t try that generalization around HP, 'K?). But try generalizing like that to, for a contrasting example, CA Central Valley farmers, where court-ordered drought has been exacerbated recently by actual drought. Families have lost farms their families had farmed for generations.

The economy hasn’t collapsed - take that up with the alarmists, not me - but its “growth” since 2008 has been insufficient to employ anywhere near fully each year’s graduating class. And with companies moving out of - partially or entirely - high tax states, that doesn’t portent well. Even tech companies are shifting parts (beyond manufacturing, most of which was moved out of the US in the 70s and 80s) of their operations out of Silicon Valley (where I live and work, in Tech) and out of CA to other states or off-shore.

So saying the economy hasn’t collapsed isn’t exactly a high or hopeful standard. Present reality is mediocre at best, and near-term prospects are not good.

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One of the things that I believe has hurt this country is the over regulation of business. And sadly those regulations are put in place by lawmakers that have not a clue what it takes to run a business or how the new regulations will affect those businesses. There seems to be a general perception by the lefties & all of our politicians that companies can just increase the cost of their products a penny or two or even a nickel & consumers will pay the extra so it’s not a big deal. It’s easy to think that when you know nothing about how a business works or what profit margins are or even what some new regulation will cost the business owners. If businesses had complete control over pricing we would all be paying $20 for a burger.
I’m reminded of a talk that I had with my father in law. He was a union man (I’m kind of against unions in general) & retired from 2 different unions. He gave this example of what he saw: Some machine broke down & a mechanic went to fix it. Following him were 4 other people (one was the safety officer & I can’t remember who the other were). Anyway say the machine took 90 minutes to repair. The mechanic did his job & the cost to the company was 90 minutes of time PLUS 90 minutes of each of the other 4 people that went with him. So the cost was 5 times what it should have been (in man hours & pay). I’m sure that some or all of those others were required by either the union or government or both. Now that example isn’t a perfect one for my example but probably close enough for most people to see waste.


I was in the Army with a guy who did that. JR lived on next to nothing. He slept UNDER his desk (he is a FIELD GRADE OFFICER), did not own a car and poured every nickel he had into the stock market. Once a week, he ate out, rest of the time he ate in the mess hall (breakfast and lunch only) he did not eat supper.

We were in the same unit as Lt’s, Captains and later as Field Grade… We retired about the same time. His goal was to retire a multi millionaire and he did…then he dropped dead!

We were in the same unit as Lt’s, Captains and later as Field Grade… We retired about the same time. His goal was to retire a multi millionaire and he did…then he dropped dead!
Back when I used to discuss finances with young troops the number 1 answer for not needing to invest money (from them) was that they wouldn’t live long enough. My come back was always the same…But what if your UNLUCKY & do live a long time? Heck with the medical history of the males in my family I shouldn’t have been able to make 20 years in the military before I died (heart attacks in my family start in the 20’s). (My 2 cousins had H/A’s at 28 & 33 years old). Yet I more than doubled the “normal” heart attack age before my first one. And here I am, still alive & kicking & as it turned out, I didn’t need the money that I invested nor what I made on it. So was it a waste to invest, no. That’s because I won’t have a heart attack worrying about what’s going to happen to my wife when I’m gone. She will have more than enough to live on no matter how long she lives. Heck she’s even told me that after I’m gone the first thing she is going to do is hire a young muscular pool boy. That shows you how much extra money she will have because we DON’T EVEN HAVE A POOL. (wink)

What percentage is that?

I’m sorry, where is the problem?

Even as a percent of Federal outlays between 1970 and today historically has fallen between 5-15% (today we are at 6%).

LOL…Hilarious how carefully worded that is “out of work”. That includes my Grandmother who is 92, both my daughters who are 12 and 13, everyone who is in jail, college, mental institutions ect, ect…come on Ret, you can do better than that.

Actually, the big winners over the last 30 years are the 80th to 99th percentile (with most of that in the 90%+. The top 1% has increased it’s share of the wealth 1% in the last 30 years, but the top 19% have increased their share about 4%. The bottom 80% have declined by about 5%.

Actually, I agree that low interest has created the situation much as you describe it, but why are interest rates so low? The Fed doesn’t set rates by decree well, not exactly, they announce a target rate and manipulate the quantity of reserves in the banking system though the purchase or sale of assets. This in turn effects the overnight rate that banks borrow from one another.

The Fed Purchased trillions of dollars in “negative assets” as a way to prevent an economic global collapse. It’s too bad we couldn’t visit a world where the Fed didn’t make these purchases. I suspect things would be much, much worse than they are today. I think a stock market driven by borrowed money while bad, isn’t as bad as the alternative we avoided.

So the Fed traded trillions of dollars in cash (reserves) for negative assets which today, taken as a whole are largely positive and creating hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue. The Fed now has the arduous task of selling those assets back to the private sector in order to reclaim the reserve cash created so it can raise rates. Right now, the Fed could announce a target of 5%, but most rates wouldn’t change. I suspect it will be 2021 or beyond before rates will rise over 1%.