That’s an incredibly cynical p.o.v… to bad it’s likely quite correct.
As the Church became more and more educated in the processes of human reproduction, and human anatomy, it had to re-evaluate what had been taught previously as in the case of Galileo. That does not mean that Church Fathers, who held positions contrary to what scientists and medical experts have proven in the 20th and 21st centuries, were wrong. They were correct based on the current scientific and medical knowledge of their times. CWolf, it doesn’t matter if the whole world believes something such as abortion or infanticide are options. Nothing is going to make either moral or less heinous.
Tertullian was a pagan for most of his young life until mid life. He was a Catholic priest for most of his adult life until he was enchanted by the Montanists which he later disassociated himself. (He started his own sect after that.) His writings up until his involvement with Montanism are absolutely on par with Church teachings and are often used by clergy today in writings and speeches. He was a tremendous believer in the sinfulness and horror of infanticide and incest.
I disagree because of what I mentioned earlier: The Alabama law is not a challenge to Roe v Wade; it merely goes into effect if the Supreme Court overturns Roe.
FC, I haven’t forgot you, it’s been busy here, but I was mulling something over in my head the other day and I’d like to do a little Q&A with you… I ask that you be patient and let’s see where this goes. BTW, I’m about 1/2 way through my response to your long reply…
Ok, so simple question.
Is it wrong to kill animals?
I would have to say depends on the reason/circumstance. I also must answer from my Christian worldview; man was made in God’s image. Animals were not. God gave us animals for food, hides, etc. Not so man; He created man for a relationship with Him.
First, thank you for playing along…
So it’s ok to kill animals, but you say it depends. Can you give me a few examples of when it is not and why it wouldn’t be ok?
Oh, and as an aside, I don’t disagree with you, I just have different reasons for holding my belief. SHOCKER I know. That said, keep playing along?
Vegetarians and vegans believe that killing animals for any reason is sinful.
I’ll give examples of both when it is and isn’t acceptable in my view.
Is acceptable: For food, hides, defense (of self or others against attacking or threatening animal, domestic or wild), pests (especially, but not exclusively, in the house (mice, rats, bats, etc.)).
Not acceptable: For pure sport (as distinct from enjoying the sport while hunting or fishing for meat), sadistism, irresponsibility.
I’m on the fence about medical research.
Why do you believe it isn’t it acceptable to kill animals like this?
Here is where I’m hoping to get a little insight…
-For pure sport, because it causes needless pain and destruction.
-For sadism (I don’t know where in the world I came up with “sadistism”…), I believe it’s a sin to hurt an animal (or moreso a person) for selfish perverted pleasure (and I believe that pleasure derived from hurting something or someone is most perverted).
-Out of irresponsibility, because it’s also preventable. I imagine there’s plenty of room to disagree on what constitutes irresponsibility. I don’t believe in getting a pet and neglecting to take care of it, but neither am I going to give up driving for fear of causing roadkill.
So the reason why we kill is important. I completely agree…
Killing mice in order to rid your home of them is ok because mice can cause serious issues and they spread disease. But if you caught your son lighting one on fire you would be upset with him. However, I’d suggest that it’s not the mouse you care about, but your son. It’s not the animal, in this case the mouse, that we value (after all you’d kill as many mice as you needed to to rid them from your home), but what killing for sadistic pleasure does to us (“us” meaning humans) that is the issue.
Does that make sense? Would you agree?
Agreed. I’d also be seriously worried about my daughter were she to abort her baby for “convenience” sake, too.
And this confirms what I’m saying (and I think your right Dave to say that).
You would be worried about your daughter and I think that’s what this debate is really all about.
We worry how the choice to terminate life before it begins says about “us” and the value we put on life. I think the same can be said for euthanasia. I think, culturally, there is a concern that if we start allowing people to kill themselves (in the cause of euthanasia) or terminate an unborn child (abortion) that we fear that the value of life will be diminished.
I think that’s ultimately what this debate is about. The fear of the devaluation of life.
I can understand that.
What do you think of my reply above to Dave?
That’s true of vegans, but not vegetarians as a rule. I don’t know a single vegetarian that thinks what you’ve stated, however, I think it’s true to say that most vegetarians are probably more conscious of where the animal products they use and consume come from. For example, a vegetarian would be more likely to pay extra for eggs that come from “cage-free” chickens, whereas vegans don’t eat eggs.
Frankly, I think veganism is just a secular form of worship.
The left has become the Party of Death. They are pro-abortion (even just for “convenience”) and they are pro-assisted suicide and pro-euthanasia of those that they consider to be “useless.” Yet another reason why I am conservative and will ALWAYS be so.
Roll your eyes if you like, but their record says I’m correct. The left in Europe has already “legalized” euthanasia of those that some doctor claims have a poor “quality of life.” It has been met with some sympathetic agreement by the American left, too. The left opposed a proposed law that would prohibit abortions of any child that MIGHT be afflicted with Downs Syndrome. Not that WOULD be, mind you, but which MIGHT be based on amnio.
Not really. I care about the animal, too (even when dispatching a mouse caught alive in the trap). For that reason, when I clean a fish (haven’t had occasion to do so in years, I’ll cut off the head right away to end the suffering, even though scaling it first would be easier.
And yeah, if I had a son and I caught him setting a mouse on fire, I would (figuratively speaking) set his backside on fire…