Benghazi: A idea what really happened...

I alluded to the arming. As to not being fueled, not buying it. It’s standard procedure for military planes to be topped off after flight so that they’re ready for whatever mission they might be called upon for, and it’s standard procedure for all planes to be kept fully fueled in order to minimize moisture condensation in the fuel tanks.

I’ve read that range figure for the F-15E, but I have to wonder about it when the standard air-superiority F-15s list a combat radius of 1,200 miles, and the F-15E carries about 75% more internal fuel. That figure may relate to a lo-lo-lo mission profile (jets are fuel guzzlers at low altitude) or Hi-lo-lo-high. Also, you don’t have to carry a max load of ordnance. Further, they could likely have gotten there faster by going in (at least while over the Med) supersonic at altitude at minimum afterburn, and scrambling a tanker or three for the return trip.

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I have cone to the conclusion that Alaska Slim is a well-trained parrot for administration talking points.

AS keeps ignoring the fact that the people at Benghazi had been begging for more security for weeks before the massacre.

No I didn’t. READ. MY. POST.

Is this the same Senate controlled by the presidents political party? They exonerated his administration, imagine that

Your posts all seem to boil down to “the government says so, it must be true”

More like “The people in uniform in command said it, so I will take them at their word”. Also, the House Armed Services Committee Report. Gee, what party controls them?

After Secretary Panetta gave his orders to mobilize around midnight on September 11th, 2012, the military was the one calling the shots.

I’ am taking my stance here, because what you are doing is no different than the legions of Truthers who assailed the Air Force for not stopping the planes on 9/11.

In your eagerness to hang this administration with a scandal, you are throwing a noose around the neck of people who were just doing their damn jobs that night.

I will not let you hang them. I will defend them, for the explicit reason that they defend us all.

Sooo, what happened to General Carter Ham and Admiral Gaouette? They wanted to go help, and their careers apparently ended for it. Okay for them to get hanged, eh? Or do you prefer a firing squad? But you want to protect the people who are doing nothing more than ‘cyoa’.

That would have to be empty weight. But this may be academic. I thought one of the Aviano Squadrons, the 555th, still had F-15s, but wikipedia says they were re-equipped with F-16s. Indeed, all pictures from the base are only of the latter aircraft. It’s sister squadron, the 510th, has always had F-16s for as long as they’ve been stationed there.

That shortens the combat radius even further to about ~300 miles. And that’s a hi-lo-hi configuration. With two 370-gal and one 300-gal fuel tanks, you get ~800 miles.

and the F-15E carries about 75% more internal fuel. That figure may relate to a lo-lo-lo mission profile (jets are fuel guzzlers at low altitude) or Hi-lo-lo-high. Also, you don’t have to carry a max load of ordnance. Further, they could likely have gotten there faster by going in (at least while over the Med) supersonic at altitude at minimum afterburn, and scrambling a tanker or three for the return trip.

Even at a dry burn, if put it to the max, an F-15 would run through its fuel in 51 minutes. If you want range, you have to compromise on speed. And at this point, you’re looking at the planes from Djibouti over 2,000 miles away, still without tanker support.

Nope, General Ham is the one that decided against an air action, even as George Hicks was calling for it.

"***I will admit to giving a lot of thought about close air support. And in the lead up to September 11th, in the discussions about what forces should we have available, it was my determination, obviously with advice from others, but the responsibility was mine as the commander, was that close air support was not the appropriate tool in this situation.

And as I look back on the events of that night and say … and think in my own mind would air have made a difference? And in my military judgment, I believe the answer is no.***"

Rear Admiral Brian L. Losey was the one who ordered Lieutenant Colonel S.E. Gibson’s Security Support Team to remain in Tripoli.

“***Rear Admiral Losey explained to the committee that it was rooted in his belief that Lieutenant ColonelGibson’steam was “the only military element . . . in Tripoli that had any security experie nce whatsoever” and “it seemed prudent” to divide the few military personnel in Libyabetween Tripoli and Benghazi rather than concentrate them in one location. He said his decision was based on consultation with two other officers and the three had “about 90 years of collective Special Operations experience” between them.***”

Admiral Gaouette is irrelevant. He wasn’t part of the command loop that night in anything relating to Benghazi, and his charges were for his own conduct.

The F-16s wouldn’t have as much range, although my book for the later blocks of the F-16C lists a radius of 923 miles as opposed to the listed 800 for the F-15E (which I don’t accept for reasons given).

As to empty weight, no. Empty weight is without fuel. And I did mention that you don’t have to carry a max load of ordnance.

I didn’t say maximum afterburn; I said minimum.

If the U.S.A.F. still had F-111s and had them stationed in proximity, it would have been a cinch. I still wonder what units might have been in Sicily; there is or was an NAS there.

You’re speaking to conformal fuel tanks. F-15C/Ds can use them too, but they typically aren’t equipped as its increases the drag coefficient, and takes away weapon hard points.

As to empty weight, no. Empty weight is without fuel.

Sure, but I wasn’t using weight & balance terminology there. Most stats I look at differentiate in terms empty vs dry weight.

I didn’t say maximum afterburn;

I’m saying no afterburn, maximum dry thrust. 51 minutes. If it was full after-burn, it’d be 15 minutes.

Which wouldn’t be possible anyway, the F-15 is not the F-22, it’s not capable of supercruise.

If the U.S.A.F. still had F-111s and had them stationed in proximity, it would have been a cinch. I still wonder what units might have been in Sicily; there is or was an NAS there.

My Flight Physiology professor flew F-111s. Always said he thought it’s capability was never fully replaced. Too few Stealth bombers and B-1s, and only the B-1s were capable of fast, low-altitude penetration.

He also corrected me when I pointed out there was an F-111 at Wings over the Rockies. “No there isn’t, that’s an FB-111.

Truly, my mistake.

Seems as if AS is willing to believe anything the government puts out…period…be it Congress OR the White House. He probably also believes the Warren Report in which a single bullet struck Kennedy in the back, changed direction 90 degrees three times and STILL had enough energy to go through another man’s shoulder and lodge in his thigh!

I’m willing to believe the Military. They called the shots.

Go ahead and hang the administration for their lack of preparations and denying the Ambassador his request for additional security, I won’t stop you, they deserve it.
They also deserve any blame you can give them for saying “we didn’t know it was a Terrorist attack”, when the members of the military who were there said they never suspected it was anything else but an attack.

“***I think . . . there was some preliminary discussion about . . . maybe there was a demonstration. But . . . personally . . . I think the [U.S. Africa] command very quickly got to the point [of believing] this was not a demonstration, this was a terrorist attack.***”

  • General Ham

When he was asked, “***did anyone in the military or anyone surrounding this event ever call [the events in Benghazi] anything but an attack?***” he replied, “[n]ot that I remember.” To the specific question, in “***any of the in formal discussion[s] that you were a part of or had the ability to hear about, did anyone call this a demonstration that got out of control?***” he answered “No.

- Colonel George H. Bristol being interviewed by the ASC.

However, if you’re accusing General Ham, General Demspey, General Roberson, Rear Admiral Losey, Col Bristol, or Lt. Col. Gibson of lying at any point, you had better have evidence for it.

I will not let you accuse them frivolously. You don’t have the right.

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Sorry, Bub, but I have EVERY right to accuse people of lying when it’s apparent that they ARE. It’s part of the privileges one acquires by living in a (so-far) putatively free nation. If you think those in the military are trustworthy, I invite you to have served with me IN the military for 8 years, including two in Vietnam.

I think they’ve taken an oath they wouldn’t betray arbitrarily.

I think they’ve made it clear their decisions fit the information at the time.

I think General Dempsey is one of the few humble leaders we have left, a man who in true G. Washingtonian fashion puts the apolitical culture of the military before all else.

If you have evidence to the contrary, fine, stand and deliver.

Why do you think Mcarther and FDR never got along?

[quote=“Alaska_Slim, post:33, topic:36825”]
I’m willing to believe the Military. They called the shots.
[/quote] unless we have a rogue military, their “call” on something is their boss’s “call” on it. his name is barack Obama.

Moreover, Brig. Gen. Robert Lovell, Deputy Director for Intelligence and Knowledge Development Directorate for AFRICOM at the time of Benghazi, testified that “we should’ve tried” to get to the survivors of the first wave, and that a time-honored military precept is “go to the sound of the guns.”

Most shockingly, Lovell testified that AFRICOM never even received a call from the State Dept to discuss with them whether or not a response should be mounted.

only in the sense that barack obama is their commander in chief, was the decision not to go “the military’s call.”

SNORT The charges against Adm. Gaouette read as trumped up BS, to me. Damn near unheard of to replace a CSG commander in the middle of deployment. He was fired for not being ‘politically correct’ enough? (Not that I would put it past this administration to do it, mind.) Yeah, that makes sense.

Ships movements are classified, so no idea where CSG3 was on 9-11-12. It’s listed as a pacflt asset, but that doesn’t necessarily tell you anything: so was the battlegroup my ship was assigned to and we got sent through the Suez to assist the Enterprise battlegroup… off the coast of Libya, coincidentally enough (that would have been 25 years [:freaked:] ago, now).

Here’s the thing: we’ll never know what happened at and associated with Benghazi, because every iota of information pertaining to it is suspect. The information is suspect because the very first thing the government did was lie. Could be they just wanted to hide how stupid and feckless this entire administration is. That would be some industrial strength stupidity, though wouldn’t it?

As far as the officers go, I know damned well that general officers can and will lie to congress and the public to protect their careers and reputations… just like everyone else on the planet. Having managed to stay in their positions under *this *president makes them all the more suspect.

Yeah, pick a bone with it however you want, he still wasn’t involved with Benghazi.

Here’s the thing: we’ll never know what happened at and associated with Benghazi, because every iota of information pertaining to it is suspect. The information is suspect because the very first thing the government did was lie.

Not the officers, what did I just quote? They denied any connection to a “demonstrations” or a video", they outright called it an attack. Does that sound like they’re on the same page with this administration to you?

As far as the officers go, I know damned well that general officers can and will lie to congress and the public to protect their careers and reputations…

'Cept, it wasn’t just General officers. The COLs leading the security teams/spec ops said the same thing. Lt. Col. Gibson who was frustrated for being ordered to stay in Tripoli, later admitted it was the right call, as it allowed his medic to treat wounded Americans being evacuated to Tripoli.

I’m not denying ultimate reponsibility, but no, this is wrong, not the least of which being the President having been “checked out” that evening.

The moment Secretary Panetta gave his order around midnight, the military was calling the shots. The AFRICOM Commander even overruled George Hicks request for fly byes.

Most shockingly, Lovell testified that AFRICOM never even received a call from the State Dept to discuss with them whether or not a response should be mounted.

That only further solidifies the Military as the one make the decisions. At their discretion, assets were moved or stayed put.