Birthright Citizenship Ended by Executive Order


#261

I wouldn’t say its flatly that, as

  1. Jefferson is part responsible for the Constitution’s text.
  2. He wrote the Northwest Ordinance before the Constitution was adopted.
  3. The Constitution (Section 9) doesn’t state Slavery must be over by 1808, only that Congress is prohibited from making it illegal before that date.

YEARBOOK: Ralph Northam In Blackface & KKK Photo
#262

Is it possible that after a life of slavery those particular people, because of the conditions they lived in as slaves were unprepared to live in the world? Perhaps, and I admit I’m just musing on the topic, but maybe He felt responsible for those particular slaves?


#263

Oh, I’m fairly certain he DID “feel responsible” for them. They were his PROPERTY after all. He did NOT consider them his human equals, however.


#264

He considered them human beings, who needed to have their rights recognized.

Jefferson admitted that it was likely slavery itself which diminished Africans into something “simpler” than whites.

He concluded this likely due to interactions with Black patriots like Wentworth Cheswell, who were freeborn and educated.


#265

So you’re saying that Jefferson ADMITTED that holding his slaves likely diminished them into something “simpler” than whites? If so, then he believed them to NOT be a white person’s “equal.” Sort of punctures your whole meme doesn’t it?


#266

I’ve often wondered about this in a general sense of slavery in America. When they were freed, most rose to the challenge. But a fair percentage (small in general terms, but significant in context) of them didn’t know how to handle their abrupt freedom, and turned to drinking and crime; and I’ve often wondered if that isn’t a significant part of the reason for the significantly higher crime rate among blacks.


#267

40 acres and a mule had something to do with this I believe. Something to give them a jump start.


#268

The slaves were effectively freed in 1865. Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that the “significantly higher crime rate among blacks” is related to their distant ancestors’ servitude?


#269

Not to excuse modern behavior, but cultural elements can be quite persistent, and it often seems to me that the most negative elements are the most persistent. I dont think that notion can be casually dismissed, but neither do I think modern whites bear any responsibility for it.


#270

Nope, you’re changing the meaning. Jefferson saw them Equal in that they were men, not in their capabilities.

Slaves are still men, thus they still have equal rights, which is why slavery in his mind had to end.

Equality in rights, equality before the law.


#271

Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams would flatly deny this; they would point to instead the disintegration of the Black family, which started circa ~1960.


#272

The blacks in this country were doing quite well when integration was in process. Their successes were discouraged when LBJ told them they shouldn’t integrate, or they’d lose their culture. That must have been part of the incident when he was caught on mike saying, "We’ll have those n****rs voting for us for 200 years.


#273

I think I already covered this. He can think some Muslims and Hindus are better than some Christians, while maintaining a strong preference for one particular group. There is quite a difference between “We will accept your most capable elite” and “Please empty our your ghetto/prison into our town”

Equality and slavery can co-exist!


#274

He cites Locke’s Letter on Tolerance as evidence for why respect for Religion must be Universal (his term), not dependent on anything Christian.

Jefferson’s own words demonstrate his motive here.

You’re going to have acknowledge this Cwolf, irrespective of immigration, they did mean universal respect of rights. There’s no escaping that.

And I think you missed what I said before, so I’ll elaborate on it here.

The Founders centered their argument as to who fully joined into the society through arguments on naturalization, not immigration.

They had other categorizes of person who weren’t naturalized, yet whom still enjoyed Constitutional protections, such as “friendly” aliens (anyone were not at war with), and denizens (non-whites born here).
If you read the text of the Naturalization Act of 1798, you’ll get a sense of it.

Whites were given exclusivity to naturalize until the 1850s. Immigration was allowed to be its own thing.

And you keep dancing around the issue Cwolf.

Why were they trying to dismantle Slavery?

Its clear to anyone who reads what they say.


#275

I’ve always said that the seeds of slavery’s overturn were sowed in the Constitution itself and deliberately so. Slavery was certainly controversial in 1789 and clearly on the decline, I’ve never denied that. But there’s a huge gap between “Slavery is wrong” and “Everyone has equal treatment under the law”.

I quote Jefferson, Lincoln and plenty of others who directly deal with “Should black people be able to vote” and the universal reply was “NO”. And you sit here and say they ‘really meant yes’. They did not.

You know, I can’t take my dog out to the town square and beat him to death with a baseball bat either?

That doesn’t mean my dog has equal rights. In a less extreme example than pets, would be children - or women before the early 20th century. They had some of the rights - but not all of them.

Even if you want to go with the slave vs freeman argument - fine. We had black freemen. ALL white women were free people. White women were not granted all of the same rights.

If they believed in universal equality, why did they specify rights that applied exclusively for men?

And do you think ANY of the founders(including abolitionists) considered “free” black men to be equals to white women? Make a case for why, I’d love to hear it.


#276

Also, there was a very large faction that desired to limit the vote to ONLY those who owned property–real estate. That’s HARDLY a bunch espousing “equality.”


#277

The two are tied together; (small r) republican values as the Founders saw them through Locke, demanded equal, universal treatment of natural rights.

Thus, unfortunate culture practice where we treated one part of our population less than equal in terms of their liberty, person, or property, had to go. It’s a threat to the ethic; a way for anti-republican values to creep back into the society.

But they couldn’t do it all at once as that would have created riot that would split the country; thus, a phase out was instead put into motion.

Okay, so we’re getting to heart of the misunderstanding here.

I was talking about natural rights: Life, Liberty, Property.

Voting, Holding public office, being a public servant, those are all artificial creations of Government. These aren’t natural rights, rather, they are contractual privileges which Government is free to gate however it sees fit [within the bounds of the Social Charter].

Natural Law is about what rights you would have (or at least assert you have) even in the absence of Government.

Those privileges meanwhile, are what separates a Citizen from a “friendly” alien, or the obsolete category of denizen. Hence why debates over naturalization became so fractious, because that was a struggle over how access to voting etc. was being gated.

Your dog doesn’t have property, or liberty. Nor would killing them threaten capital punishment. So the comparison has lost something.

If you were trying to take the property of a person, even a non-white, you would have to assert that claim in a civil court, and prove it by “the preponderance of the evidence” that you had some claim to it.

You also couldn’t stop people from walking down a street, or stop a “Muhammadan” from practicing his faith, and expect a court to defend the action.

Due process, would defend the person you’re harming. Not because “compassion”, which is inexact and nebulous, but because “natural rights”, which apply to everyone, equally, and for which we have 3-4 centuries worth of precedent to decide what the bounds of it are.


#278

BS. If there is no government, the very TERM “citizen” is meaningless, as would be the idea of a “friendly alien”. The term “denizen” would be the ONLY operable definition. Your definition of “natural law” then, is without real meaning in the absence of government. The fact is, you only have the “rights” that someone else, or some group of someone elses, are willing to GIVE you, which implies that ALL rights derive from government…or from some form of organized social controls, regardless of what you choose to call it. We believe in “God-given rights” in THIS country because we CHOOSE to believe in them. Many other countries simply deny that they exist–or they only exist in a form of which we collectively (at least in the majority) approve.


#279

Yes, citizenship is a creation of Government. natural law isn’t concerned with it.

Natural law is the rights you are supposed to have, even when Government isn’t there.


#280

If I’m someone’s property, I don’t have liberty.

The reason this is falling apart is because you’re trying to unify multiple conflicting ideas. The people who made the law did not agree that everyone had a right to those things. They just didn’t. And that’s a much more basic “Other people can’t OWN me” idea, which is a quite a bit more basic than “The right to move to any land you deem fit”(which is a ‘right’ I have never heard of).