Birthright Citizenship Ended by Executive Order


#81
  1. You got it wrong Old dog, I stated that outright

There were problems with welfare before illegals used it. That’s the real issue, and you’ve avoided it, pretending this in an immigration issue, when it’s a government structure issue.

With or without illegals, these systems are in crises. You can’t deny that.

Further, illegals add to the Federal system, which is why Federal politicians protect them. They add to the income stream the Feds get, and Gov’t is predictably protective of its income streams.

  1. Just in case you missed it:

We’re in this situation, because we’ve okayed law to manipulate the labor supply.

If you want to fix illegal immigration, you have to allow for more legal immigration.

And just a better guest-worker program.

The need for that couldn’t be more clear, when half of illegals, are just people who failed to get their visas renewed, for frivolous reasons.

If the gov’t system worked, that wouldn’t happen.


#82

NO, that’s not the relevant issue here. I’m fully aware of problems both philosophical and practical with the welfare state. Start a thread on the Welfare State Crisis.


#83

True, OD. We admit over a million LEGAL immigrants per year…more than ANY other country on the planet. It’s not like we don’t HAVE an influx of new labor. What AS and other liberals want is CHEAP, unskilled labor and more voters for the Democrats. Without all the illegals coming in, who’s going to mow their lawns, baby sit their kids, roof their houses and vote for more and more free cheese???


#84

Yes it is; you can gate welfare use on the immigration end, George Bush 43 showed that. It’s way easier to build a wall around that, than our physical border.

It doesn’t change the fact the system is systemically flawed, and that that’s the problem.

Nor does it change the fact that Social Security is a bigger problem in both fiscal and statist terms, and it’s something illegals help to keep going. According to the people who run it.


#85

Not nearly enough to reach demand; we have shortages of H1-B and migrant workers every year to the tune of 50%.

If you don’t reach demand, you’re asking for a black market to be created to bridge the gap. We have illegal migrant workers, because you don’t have enough legal migrant workers. Cause & effect.

If you gated guns this way, and there was a black market arms trade, everyone here would blame the law. I’m applying the same standard.

Human nature doesn’t change, just because you don’t like the item.


#86

I’ll agree with that statement up to a point. “Birthright Citizenship” (the topic of THIS thread) provides a partial back-door to welfare benefits. There is no one step solution to the problem. A physical wall, welfare wall and clarification of birthright citizenship would all help. THEN we can logically and rationally address how many people of various skill sets we need for our continuation and growth as a coherent nation.


#87

We could stop the welfare problem by simply DENYING any State-provided services to anyone here illegally. Today, we don’t do that. Not even close.


#88

? That’s central planning. Nothing else in the economy is rationally allocated this way, so there is no expectation for labor to be different.

Labor, just like everything else, should allocate itself. If the Gov’t wants to facilitate things by being a matching system, fine.

But i’ll be very clear; if you use that as an excuse to block laborers, to cap labor below demand, you’ll just get more of the same.

Black markets organize around incentives, laws shouldn’t create them.


#89

A good thing; it’s labor that spurs on labor demand, and gets the economy humming.

Do you want me to show you Germany’s unemployment rate again Dave?

When it comes to the utility of this labor, it’s beyond the pale. It makes us better off.

There is never an excuse to “protect labor”; it just leads to same bullcrap you see France and England do.
If you want to help native labor, you focus on what Germany does; worker skills training & translational research.


#90

So you actually BELIEVE and BUY what Germany SAYS their labor participation rate is??? Are you REALLY that naive? Their immigrant population certainly has a lot of leisure time on its hands if their crime rate is any indication. Hundreds of instances of rape and robbery doesn’t indicate a thriving, fully-employed economy to anyone else that I’ve ever heard from.


#91

The Federal Judiciary has ruled on that, you cannot deny Welfare based on citizenship status so the only way the system can come up with adequate labor is for legal citizens to go on Welfare and then work under the table for cash like the illegals do.

AS knows this and he knows that scenario means a permanent majority of Democrats will win in every jurisdiction as the middle class is eradicated.


#92

You do realize that Germany has an absolutely nutty labor system right? They have a program where the government pays a company to hire someone at a sub-minimum wage rate, while providing living expenses to the person working under the program? It’s hard to even untangle it, because I know several people who work there(including one who has been employed under this system) and it’s a complete mess.

A lot of the people “participating” are only working 2 days a week, doing essentially nothing, because the government often compensates the business by a greater amount than the wage they pay(due to tax credits the business receives).

That’s not a system I’d want to replicate over here.

I think Sanders has a potentially workable idea with the universal job guarantee(essentially reestablishing the USES), but the system would have to look absolutely nothing like Germany’s program.


#93

You MUST know, CWolf, that under Sanders’ “plan” those previously unemployed would become somehow “government employees” with all the perks and privileges those jobs entail.


#94

The illegal alien part, anyway.


#95

Yes you can; George Bush did this through EO, no court stepped in to stop him, and welfare use went down.

You’ve never explained this RET, even though it completely undermines what you claim the courts “allow”.

And even if that was the case, that’s an argument to change the people on the bench, not cave in and sell away individual rights, so you can support nonsensical, statist, identitarian measures to stop cyclical immigration patterns that have been going on for a century.


#96

Better than actually doing nothing/being on welfare.

You get something on your resume, you get on the ladder towards acquiring human capital, which is what should drive wage demand, not entitlement, not protection from foreign workers from poor places, most of whom shouldn’t be as skilled as you are.

However, I’m not saying the German system could even be copied, I’m saying the general approach is correct; build worker skills, fund translational research. Whatever our approach is, it should do the same.

Ergo, focus on being value-added. The fact the Germans came out completely unscathed from China joining the WTO, while the cheap-consumable economy of Italy saw its industrial base crater, speaks for itself.

And create a body of entitled workers just like the French? Or swell the public work force so that all the counties are broke? No thank you.

There can only be a job, if there’s value in the background motivating its existence. You get that by focusing on creating value most others find difficult to make.

China is the world’s factory, but Germany tools them. And, like us, makes the microchips that goes in nearly all their modern electronics.


#97

Illegals were receiving Welfare through the entire Bush 43 administration and the entire Obama administration that followed; they are receiving today as well.

Those are the facts, no law or reform has hindered this reality; the United States taxpayers are forced at gunpoint to subsidize illegal immigrant families whose members then compete with the taxpayers for the same jobs under the table.

Those are facts, if you are a citizen who has the sole responsibility to provide for your family the workers you will be competing with in the labor market are living in homes that you are subsidizing, eating food that you are paying for, getting medical care that you are paying for, enjoying subsidized utilities that you are paying for and shouldering zero tax burden like you must submit to via gunpoint.

If you can’t do ALL OF THAT for the wages they are pleased to work for then you must join them on the dole and work illegally for cash or flee to a jurisdiction that illegals have not yet populated enough to pollute the labor rate.

That is not how a free labor market works, that is how you use government guns to create a permanent dependent class who will insure complete dominance by the Extreme Leftist Ideology in perpetuity.


#98

No, you’re changing the subject.

You said the courts wouldn’t allow movements by the Government to restrict welfare, on the basis of citizenship.

Bush 43 however made such an an executive order, the same one Trump wanted to do, and it wasn’t interfered with, and it lowered welfare use.

Thus proving you can do this, and it works. We just need to to do more of it.

You pretend we’re powerless to stop things this way, I know better.


#99

I am not changing the subject, you are trying to deflect the argument away from the fact that taxpayers are being forced to subsidize their own competition in the labor market at gunpoint; you are trying to stake out the “free labor market” ground for your position when you know good and well that is not the case.

Citing laws or regulations that are not followed either because there is no enforcement mechanism or they simply do not apply to most circumstances or because the courts have told the deep state welfare bureaucracy that they do not have to enforce them changes nothing about the reality that is happening every single day, month and year in this country.

You are just misdirecting like you always do when you are cornered, you know illegals get welfare, you know they work under the table and you know they are not taking farm jobs or “jobs Americans won’t do” ; they are competing in the construction, mechanical and transportation trades with citizens who have a much higher cost of living because all of the citizens expenses are not subsidized and the citizens are forced to subsidize their illegal competition.

Your endless comparisons about illegals “using less” or a pile of examples of your immigration vision that are all in the pre-welfare era or name dropping of respected people who never once commented on the realities that todays taxpayer’s face amount to nothing but an admission that you know your position would glean nothing but poverty and a permanent super majority for Democrats.


#100

Bull crap you’re not.

You have to tried to argue for years that it is pointless to enact controls for welfare into law because the courts would strike it down.

But Bush 43 did precisely this, it was not challenged in court and we can see by the enrollment figures that it was effective. We just needed more.

But you’re too much of a damn coward to think we should be doing that, that’s what you’re telling me.

You’re too broken, too brow beaten, too demotivated to advocate what conservative should do, containing welfare.