Both parties are suffering from pre-globalization nostegia...


I dont see where tax cuts have proven effective in anyway in increasing job creation. We have had sugnificant tax cuts for the last 6 years and we still lost jobs. On the other hand we have had the wealthy pay 30-40% in income tax and we saw sugnificant job growth in past decades. I see tax cuts as incidentel either way.

It seems we are using taxes as a clamering symbol because we are trying to run a state economy in a new global environment with tools that worked in the 20th century before globalization and we are in uncharted territory. This is illustraited by the huge flux up and down in our economy. I don’t claim to have the answers to this delema but i detest pointless and fruitless attempts to solve this issue through means like :tax cuts rather then figurign out how to crack the code of globalization. Its distracting, unproductive and will not get us out of this cyclic mess.

An example of more preglobalization and useless thinking:

More drilling will solve our oil dependence on the middle east. Anyone who knows anything about how oil is traded on the globel-commodities market will tell you that even if we could double oil production or tripple it in North America we would still see our oil prices go up. The reason is in a globel oil trading environment, all oil is added to a general global pool that everyone draws from throughout the world. If we add to much oil into the pool and drive the market down, the middle east will lower their oil production and we will still pay more at the pump.

So our solution is dated and will not solve anything. This is a example of using a old “common-knowledge” state approach to solving a globle issue. Just like lowering taxes to create jobs hasn’t worked in the past, in the present (6 years of bush tax cuts) and i see no reason why it would work in the future.

I hate to say it but we could learn alot from the Chinese on how to adjust and grow our economy in the new global environmet. China is killing us and everyone else becasue they have developed a partnership between public govt. and the private chinese business secter.

  1. China requires that any foriegn company that wants to do business in China must agree to build a factory in china to put chinese people to work.
  2. China uses state money and and shared ownership with their major private corperations to giving china’s companies a edge over American and European corperations and businesses.
  3. China also buys up American and European bonds to shield thier companies from critisizm. We may hollar and yell about how unfair China is doing busness and winning but its working and with the exception of most recient temperary trends they are growing much faster then our economy is. If China continues this approach to the global market, they will eventually start killing off our “purely private corperations” over time as they will find that their federalized private corperations will be able to out bid our purely private corperations.

Our response: but that is so “unamerican” we need to shrink government not partner with it. So we lose because we really, really want to stick with the traditional and outdated methods of the pre-globalization period of the 20th century. China is simply laughing at us as they buy and own more and more of our and european nations. While at the same time provide jobs for their people and drive foriegn corperations out of business.

This is the reason I hate both political parties they are pandering on our ignorance rather then comming up with real solutions. Reminds me of how Nero happily played his harp up on a hill as he watched the burning of Rome.


You really have no idea what you are talking about , do you?
1]What tax cut? we have had a certain tax cut which is due for elimination. Raising taxes does not increase, NEVER DID increase tax revenues. Reagan’s supply side economics gave the consumer greater power over money and we did have a better revenue stream. kept lower taxes and more money in comsumer pockets, which was spent for more goods which created more market choices which created more jobs. THIS NATION DOES NOT NEED MORE TAXES > WE NEED WAYYYYYY LESS GOVERNMENT!!!
2] Oil drilling is getting the US OUT of the foreign market and foreign price structure. This is where the fuel industry needs to be. Self sufficient and self pricing. When we have an overage then we sell at the going market rate.
We are in the world BUT we don’t have to be OF the world.


We have not had a “significant tax cut” since post 9/11, those cuts resulted in over a 40 percent increase in tax revenue and full employment, this condition endured until the Demoncrat’s took Congress in 2006.

Income tax rates are irrelevant, ALL taxes are expenses so all have the same effect.

Singling out the income tax rate as if that is the extent of government imposed usury might sell in Liberal circles but anyone who runs a business knows that the income tax rate is the LAST tax paid, not the biggest or the only tax paid.

Times of economic prosperity coincide with times of low total tax and regulatory burden, times of stagnant economic conditions coincide with times of large tax and regulatory burdens.

My incomes tax rate has not changed in 10 years but I spend 4 times as much satisfying the government requirements to operate than I did 10 years ago, calling extortion by another name does not change what it is. Pretending that looking at the Federal Tax Brackets from any era is sufficient to determine the economic results of tax policy is nefarious.

the laws on economics and markets are universal and timeless.

Cheap labor is less efficient that skilled labor payed much more.
Cheap, stable energy costs are mandatory to sustain growth.
Competition breeds efficiency.
Tax Rates that encourage risk taking spur rapid growth,

Today we embrace;
Expensive labor that perform like cheap labor due to protectionism.
Expensive, unstable energy costs due to government intrusion into the energy market.
A regulatory monstrosity that prevents new businesses from forming to compete with existing entities and that outlaws innovation.
A Tax System that discourages risk and punishes success when it manages to occur.

If your desire was to destroy an economy you could not create a more effective structure or philosophy than we have implemented in America today to achieve that goal.

We do not have “Huge ups and downs”, we are stagnant.

Taxes and Regulations combined with labor protectionism and a corrupt judiciary are the cause of our struggles, Romney only has one of these four issues right and Obama has none of them right.

There is no “code” to crack, Socialism, oppression and Communism destroy economies while free markets, Liberty and rugged individualism grow economies.

Absolutely nothing has occurred in the last decade to alter those truths.

You think that is true because you do not understand market dynamics.

If the United States decided to publicly embrace a “Drill everywhere we have resources available today” energy policy the price of a barrel of oil would plummet before the first drill bit hit oil and before the first Dixie Cup of oil was extracted.

EVERY phase of oil energy production, distribution and retail sales is governed by market forces and competition EXCEPT for the supply of crude, governments control the lions share of the worlds crude oil supply.

The price of a barrel of oil is high because no significant threat to this monopoly exists, preserving this price guarantees enormous prosperity and political relevance for Nations that have no other means of being relevant in the affairs of the world.

If the U.S. was to convince the world that we were going to remove ALL the shackles from our domestic oil supply and go after every drop everywhere, the Nations that currently supply the world with crude oil would open the spigots and flood the world with oil cheap enough to make U.S. extraction unprofitable in most regions.

We would never even start punching holes in most places because it would be cost prohibitive but the resulting stabilization of cheap energy supplies would revive our domestic economy by redirecting the massive amount of American dollars now leaving our Nation into our domestic economy.

There is no supply limitation that is causing these prices, it is a monopoly on the side of the owners of the crude oil supply that limit the supply enough to keep prices artificially high. Trying to utilize percentages of oil added to the worldwide market to predict the effect on barrel price when everyone knows that market forces are not what is determining the supply side of the market is dubious.

If I had control of 80 percent of the worlds toilet paper and Enviro-Nazi Communist’s guaranteed that I would never face market competition from anyone else then I would charge 10 bucks a roll, that is what most of the Oil Dictators do with their supply monopoly.

Wrong, they will seek to protect their monopoly and relevance by cutting prices so low that nobody else bothers to extract their own.

This happened in the 1980’s by the way, the Texas oil industry was starving in the 1980’s because OPEC decided to put them under with cheap oil. Today our government is trying to eradicate domestic oil production so OPEC just smiles and stuffs American dollars in the bank while enjoying the butt kissing they receive from the whole world.

Our solution is not “dated”, anymore than the law of gravity is "dated"
Your excuse to ignore domestic supplies and the realities of a monopolized market will always destroy whatever market they are applied to.

The conclusions you are drawing in this paragraph are based upon the flawed premises you established earlier, if I accepted your premises I would draw these conclusions as well but your premises are flawed.

You have bought the same lie that the Liberals were selling during the Cold War, back then they said the Soviet Union was killing us and everyone else due to their superior government controlled economy.

China is a house of cards, their growth is entirely dependent upon the ability of foreign markets to buy their goods, foreign raw materials being shipped in and their currency manipulation lasting long enough to eradicate competition abroad before it crushes them under its own weight.

They are like two stores of the same type across the street from one another, one is owned by a wealthy man and the other has not been around long enough to amass a nest egg.

The wealthy owner decides to drop his prices below cost to put his competitor out of business so he can have the whole market to himself, this is called a “price war” and was common until the 1980’s when everyone realized it rarely works.

The wealthy owner always runs out of capital before the weaker owner runs out of capacity to endure as long as the weaker owner does not panic and try to play the same game as the wealthy owner.

You are advocating for the U.S. to join China in their flawed design that is destined for failure, you are trying to convince us to be like the weaker owner who panics and embraces a proved failed concept.

Just as the collapse of the Soviet Union surprised everyone except Supply Side Conservatives, the backslide of China will shock most on the Left side of the spectrum.

Nothing has “changed” in the era of “globalization” except enlarged markets, that just means that all the lessons we learned between 1820 and 1950 are being learned now by the new participants in the world market.

All the same laws of economics still apply.

This is call “Protectionism”, it is not “new” and it always fails by removing market forces from infrastructure decisions.

There is no “edge” gleaned by bringing government into business, the motivations and consequences to bad decisions are non existent to government so this just reduces efficiency and ads layers of bureaucracy. This is not “new” or innovative, it is a proved failure as a long term model.

No, they buy U.S. and European bonds because they can do nothing else with the money they get from trading with these Nations, this is a great evidence of their inevitable crash. Far to great a percentage of China’s economy is dependent upon the prosperity of other Nations, this will be their downfall.

I am not “hollering”, I am enjoying China’s stupidity by getting great prices along with the knowledge that a Communist model is collapsing under its own unwillingness to accept the lessons of history.

China’s current downturn is not an “exception”, it is the consequence of a flawed model that has never succeeded over time anywhere that it has been tried.

And it has been tried A LOT on multiple scales.

No, if China continues they will end up sucking hind teat just like every other time a derivative of Mercantilism has been embraced by a Nation.

It is “Un-American” and it is the reason America rose from nothing to the greatest power on earth in just 150 years while Nations like China still govern at gunpoint and force abortions while having to play market games doomed to collapse just to feed their impoverished and oppressed people.

History did not begin 15 years ago, this story is not new and the end is already written.
Unless we are more naive than ever before and decide to embrace the same failed concepts.

You have bought the tired hype and flawed premise, you are ready to embrace a proved failure of an economic model because China has managed a good run for one decade (2000 to 2010), there is a lot more information regarding economics than this 10 year period and NOTHING China is doing is new or innovative.

I hate both Parties as well but for different reasons, both Parties are trying to get Americans to accept much of your concepts.

A Party that embraces my view does NOT exist anymore, when it does America will come charging back.


You totally bypassed by entire point and just repeated the party line. What Dems and Republicans dont understand is that all oil world wide is publically traded on the commodities market. We are no longer in a economy where we produce our own oil as you put it. No matter how much oil we produce in this country we will be no closer to oil independence. The only way your argument would hold water would be to take American produced oil off the commodities exchange and that simply isn’t going to happen. Your party line simply illustraits my point of comming up with pointless solutions that worked before globalization but does not in any way provide a solution in a environment where oil is a global commodity. Our oil simply is added to the same pool of global oil that all oil producers contribute to and use. there is no American only oil anymore. Its globalized, and publically traded. Just read my thread, I don’t want to restate and explain what i have already written.

As far as taxes, the rich paid between 20 and 30% or more in income taxes and we still expereianced a employment, economic recovery during the Reagan years. Reagan actually signed into law a tax increase during that time. We have had bush tax cuts for 6 years and still lost jobs rather then create them. So taxes levels are incidental to economic recovery or decline. Remember the job creaters are paying less taxes now then they have since WWII and we are still losing jobs. So taxes and its influence on the economy is a pointless descussion.

The issue is…if you read my thread is we have yet figured out new tools on how to deal with gloabalization. The old tired Hayak versus keynes arguments are out dated in our new global economic environment. We need to rethink how we are going to compete in the “new” globel economy. China is a example where they have been able to adjust to the new environment and thrive and become more competative in this global environment then the western nations…see my thread.


wanted to delete respnse but unable to will respond shortly


We all know that the main reason for our current high price at the pump is becasue of oil sepculation…who are you trying to kid? This simply illustraits my point:

Speculation In Crude Oil Adds $23.39 To The Price Per Barrel - Forbes

HowStuffWorks “How does oil speculation raise gas prices?”


Speculation has absolutely NOTHING to do with barrel price of oil other than moderating the peaks and valleys, the basic barrel price range that speculators buy and sell oil for is based on the announced production from OPEC Nations.

When they open the spigot, the price falls.
When they cut output, the price rises.

Only buffoons like Bill O’Reilly who cannot comprehend the futures market blame speculators, there is absolutely NO WAY you can connect the opinions of investors to the barrel price of oil.

Speculators make buys and sells based on what they think the production to demand ratio will be, if they guess right they make money and if they guess wrong they lose money.

And the Giants win the World Series!


And on a side note, did you really read those two links and think ***“wow, that makes sense! I guess I understand why the futures market is a bad thing now!”***?


Those had to be the obscure and ridiculously unsubstantiated and oversimplified non sequiturs (to the point of being ludicrous) that attempt to describe how the futures market works and the effect it has on retail prices.

The “how things work” article was nothing but imbecilic Left Wing talking points and the Forbes turd was filled from start to finish with “could’s” and “might’s” and “some suggest’s” to the point of being a textbook example of trying to influence opinion while covering the authors arse.


Oh ya because anything counter to your point of view gets labeled: obscure and ridiculously unsubstantiated and oversimplified non sequiturs. Lebels rather then reason deminish your point of vew to everyone except yourself. I tend to avoid labels like: liberal, imbacilic, turd because they tend to deminish the points I’m tring to make. Just a thought.


If that is the case then why don’t you enlighten me (and anyone else following this) as to how the futures market works and how it causes commodities to cost more than they would otherwise.

This should be entertaining.

Please use your own words and include the effects that would befall smaller commodity producers if the futures market was abolished for crude oil or anything else.

Please show me how uneducated I am on this subject by sharing your investment knowledge and superior wisdom and understanding of market economics.

  1. “dont see where tax cuts have proven effective in anyway in increasing job creation”

Yes and No! All things being equal, a tax cut will not create a single job, but that is because a Margarita is NOT a Margarita unless it has salt on the rim. We cannot create a single job with tax cuts. Want to create jobs then you MUST increase demand (consumer spending). That said if you CUT TAXES for the consumer, then you will increase consumer spending, thus jobs will be created.

Here is an old trick: Veterans typically have higher unemployment rates that civilians, so Congress gives a tax break to business that hire veterans. Guess how many vets gets hired as a result…NONE!

Lets say I own a company that produces widgets. We are in a recession and widget sales are down. Congress says I will get a $25,000 tax credit for every veteran I hire. So am I going to go out and hire a vet, anyone??? Why would I, sales have not gone up, I have NOTHING for him to do, I am working at capacity now and sales are down.

Now give a tax break to consumers and suddenly they want to buy more widgets, then I am hiring…MAYBE.

There is still salt on the rim that is missing and that is consumer outlook. If they do NOT feel good, then they still don’t spend…we have been seeing this for the past 4 years with Obama the Incompetent One


Speculation creates jobs as well as consumer demand, when businesses decide to improve facilities or modernize equipment jobs are created and the general outlook of everyone improves. This improves consumer confidence and that translates into economic activity.

I have been due for a new Peterbilt since 2007, that was the year my depreciation ran out and I hit the mileage number that I consider the max I want to run to avoid major reconditioning (700,000). I did not replace the truck because I had no confidence in the economy and I still don’t 5 years later.

I know of many businesses that would love to make capital investments but they have no idea what the government is going to do to them so they are getting by with old stuff until they have some confidence as to what the government is going to do.

The amount of capital that is sitting idle because of these concerns is at record highs right now but nobody is parting with capital until they are confident that the potential return is worth the risk. Business confidence would inspire a massive “stimulus” that would cost the taxpayers nothing if only our government understood what the concerns are.


Pretty well sums it up.


So are you still pushing that big Pete or have you replaced it, if not then that puppy has got some miles on by now.

Depreciation: I am against it, see no purpose it and it only puts a burden on the business. Instead write it off the year you buy and if your taxes cannot absord the full write down then you have a carry forward.

I would not be opposed to letting your write down over every how many years you chose. When you buy, you chose a write down schedule of your choosing, 1 year or 100. Why should the govt get involved at all


I have about 880,000 on it now, I was averaging 115,000 miles per year before the recession and only 36,000 per year since. I rebuilt the engine last month (the thing I try to avoid by replacing the truck at 700,000) so it should last me until the California “Cap and Trade” law forces me to park it Jan 2014.

The cap on one year depreciation is still $100,000 (I think) and a new truck is about $150,000 so I don’t have the option of single year depreciation. I don’t mind though since there is no way after 4 awful years I could replace without financing it anyway, if I am paying for it on time it makes sense to depreciate it over time as well.

That always bugs me as well, you can take it in1 year or 5 regardless of the circumstance. Why on earth they care what time frame you depreciate a capital expense over as long as the same amount is taken is void of reason, probably just one more consequence of having tax laws and regulations written by people who have never had an actual job doing anything real.


Truckers are in BIG demand down here in S Tex, big money working the Ford Shale field just S of San Antonio…ESPECIALLY ‘vacuum truck drivers’ (?), you do have to have a lot of Certs, but the money is right, got ads in the papers all the time looking, if you want work down here PM me and I will help out in any way I can, newspaper ads or what ever…


North Dakota needs trucks as well, but North Dakota and Texas have not decided that trucks are evil and should be banned like California.

A bunch of guys that used to own trucks here went to Texas when they lost their trucks and homes, I get emails once in a while saying “come over here, they actually like people who work in Texas!”