Consolidated Immigration Issues Thread


#624

You claimed that there was an outbreak of TB, and it was somehow in conjunction to the people feeding the current border crisis.

Hence a year.

You would need a conspiracy theory to explain how the CDC would miss it.

You made an error. You asserted the existence of outbreaks that haven’t happened.

You did this. And you made a similar mistake with Typhus. Something that had nothing to do migrants, you tried to pin on migrants.

It means you weren’t discerning by trying to assert it as a threat. You treated Ebola interchangeably because you didn’t have details surrounding it in mind.

It’s just throwing a disease name against a wall. That’s how you treated this.

And this is the true straw man. I’m not against border enforcement.

I’m against adding more manpower and resources, when you don’t have the laws straight.

You need to get the laws straight first; otherwise, you’ll have enforcement chasing the consequence. Like the police during Prohibition.

Grover Norquist explained this in his Speed Limit example; I’ve referenced the same thing. So I qualified myself here well in advance.

Here he is again:

I don’t know how links work. If you’re trying to say I did something to re-route it, you’re being paranoid.

That was a picture I isolated from the article it came from. An article which is also linked at the picture link in the top right:

.

And at the bottom of the source article is this link:


I can find “methods” listed on virtually every PEW page (protip: Ctrl + f), and a methodology section in at least 2 of their links.

So qix, I’ll buy that that I’m just more use to finding information on PEW’s site, and I’m taking that literacy for granted, but even if that was an error on my part, it still means I was acting in good faith.

I did everything I said I did. So did PEW.

The methodology report I gave before comes from this link ( posted before) point #2, the second link.

You talk about raw population, not work force participation? Not an industry workforce by demographic?

And equally not… who shows up for the job?

I already posted a study, where there are neighboring urban and rural counties, the rural county can have a shortage, and the urban county can have high unemployment, but Americans will not move to take jobs in the former. Americans who do take them, don’t last long.

"For perspective, the NCGA was looking for about 6,500 workers in 2011. Even if every single referred applicant had been hired and finished the growing season, that would have filled only 4.1 percent of the slots available. As a consequence, the vast majority of the workers who start work at NCGA farms are Mexican H-2A visa holders:

And Mexican workers are far likelier to stick through the season than native-born workers. About 90 percent were still working five months along, compared to less than 10 percent of native-born workers:"

Immigrants are the backbone of rural workforce jobs.

That’s why industries there fight to have them. That’s not just an “anecdote”, that’s the measured reality.

No attention to outflows/inflows? are these populations growing or shrinking?

A net loss tells me they want to be somewhere else.

They did that in the very. next. paragraph.

Why didn’t you read it qix?

Answer: you were skimming. Your desire to see methodology got caught up in an attempt to manufacture a “gotcha!” moment, that’s what you were doing.

This was an error.

You skipped over a detail, and made an error.

Let’s see you be honest about this.

No misdirection, no deflection, be honest qix, you made a mistake.
If I’m capable of admitting my mistakes, then so should you.


#625

More excuses Dave.

If you have another source that estimates vaccine rates in the South, feel free to post it.

That’s the only way I’ll buy you know anything about this.


#626

Not betting on the success of this…


#627

Strange; I was at the receiving end of a straw man, I didn’t make one.

Are you going to make an obnoxious comment at qix to even things out?


#628

I’m starting to wonder why I bother reading the posts anymore. I guess it’s just to make sure nobody is posting pron pictures.


#629

Because we ignore our own laws and give them welfare, if there were MILLIONS fleeing to avoid persecution they would VASTLY outnumber their persecutors and simply FIX THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

Yours is the argument that does not hold water.


#630

'cept the persecutors have guns and are better organized.

Precisely what’s happening in Venezuela right now. Something everyone can see RET.

So this seems like a rash comment to me.

Immigrants and remittances tend to do that. Way better than wars or foreign aid. It’s how South Korea got built, and left despotism behind. Same to Chile. Same to Rwanda. Same to (northern) Mexico.

It’s all apart of the process for how nations calm down and industrialize. It’s also apart of how we find new markets to export to.


#631

And whose fault is that?

Trump would support arming them and it would take far less effort to organize a rebellion than to trek thousands of miles for a handout; unless of course you are just lazy and figure the whole world will take responsibility for you.

There is NO sign of any attempt to do anything but storm our borders, if these people don’t care enough about their own country to fight for it why would anyone think they would be a positive addition to our country?

We already have plenty of entitlement whiners who hate this country and see it as nothing but a teat to suck dry, not enough to get your Party in the white house though; so I guess we need a few million more?


#632

In Venezuela, where they have Chinese and Russian tech to monitor everything? Where the Gov’t controls access to the bread lines through a National ID? And 20,000 Cuban Troops, just so the leadership doesn’t have to depend on local military loyalty to keep them safe?

The Maduro Gov’t prepared for this well in advance, and continues to build more precautions. With loans the Chinese give them, in exchange for oil.

Or just safety you don’t get in cartel-infested Mexico. Or the rest of the Latin Triangle. The same cartels who kidnap you, and push you to travel in caravans to remain safe.

Because the real Venezuela president isn’t supported by Venezuelan expats, sending him money to grow his cause-- oh wait, yes he is.

Which is precisely how most revolutions fighting an entrenched regime start. They gather their strength from abroad, and come back storming.


#633

That didn’t stop the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. They organized themselves, and they used mainly captured Soviet weapons until we started aiding them.


#634

Show me the quote where I made that claim, Slim. Go back, find my words and quote them.

I bet you’re talking about this:

While thyphus is the only one of those in current ‘outbreak’ status, the conditions that lead to typhus (crowding and lack of sanitation) lend themselves readily to other diseases, and typhus weakens the host and makes them more susceptible to other infections, which (thankfully) have thus far not reached outbreak status. (No instances of bubonic plague, as far as I know, that’s just a worry thus far, but there have been a few cases of cholera in L.A.)

https://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/specpop/tuberculosis_in_hispanics_latinos.htm

https://www.paho.org/hq/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2511:2010-tb-us-mexico-border-region&Itemid=40275&lang=en

Nope, the error is yours in thinking you get to conflate what I say with what you wish to argue against. Now feel free to have a heaping helping of STFU.

But according to you, the law will be ‘straight’ when there is no attempt to restrict border crossing at all. So what would additional manpower and resources do? You have repeatedly asserted that the U.S. has no right to restrict the free movement of people across the border. Ergo, your are for open borders. Or just the erasure of America as a sovereign state. They amount to the same thing.

And the map says “not rural America”. So there’s something that needs to be reconciled somewhere.

I invite everyone to go and read that paragraph and tell me how much it tells them about what Pew did to manipulate the raw numbers. With that, I am done arguing about Pews numbers and the validity of their interpretation of them.

You mean a distinction without a difference? It still happened among the homeless in L.A., people still get it, hosts immunities are weakened by it and rats (and fleas) act as vectors between people , as well as the rats incubating it. But, hey, since I didn’t specifically note the distinction, I guess it isn’t a real problem, huh?

And yet you argue we should continue to allow China unrestricted access to our markets to get the money to make the loans to the vicious despot to oppress his people who flee to America and become a drain on our economy…? You must be a lot smarter than me, because I just can’t follow your reasoning.


#635

Afghanistan is largely rural, tribal in its set up.

Venezuela has been urbanized for decades, and doesn’t have pockets of geographic isolation where its hard to ship in troops or tanks.

Ergo; Afghanistan has self-reliant, autonomous populations, who can easily set up choke points.

Whereas the nigh-entirety of Venezuela’s population was tapped into their oil wealth, and live close by to it. Which the Maduro Gov’t controls the proceeds for.


#636

Translation;
The socialists sucked all of the freebies out of their own country and are now sojourning to a new place to leach from, there is just no point fighting for the liberty to do something you don’t want to do like support yourself.


#637

It was, as well as your insistence that TB would be on “my head”. But I’ll admit that I made a mistake here. You didn’t call it an outbreak.

So here’s the context: 50 out of centers holding and processing more than 1,000 each day.

Meaning a ~95% immunity rate, matching exactly the rate at which people from these countries are vaccinated.

That doesn’t sound like an outbreak in waiting qix. It just sounds like the people who were vulnerable got sick.
I’ll wager the infected were mostly kids too young to have the vaccinations in question.

Since were also not getting constant stories of medical personnel or border guards being infected with these diseases, this suggest the strains they carry are not runarounds to standard vaccinations.

And this… isn’t relevant. Antibiotic resistant strains aren’t caused by migrants, it’s caused by overuse of antibiotics. Largely in farming.

Yet, there’s no outbreak of TB in Mexico, and rates of TB have also been falling in Mexico., year after year.

So, sanity check now qix, if there isn’t an outbreak down there, why would people coming here cause one? In a country with better treatment & detection?

Yup I made an error, I’ll take that.

But so did you; you asserted TB was growing when it was shrinking (both here and in Mexico), and you said Typhus was driven by people, when it’s rats living in trash.

So you made a mistake. Again we come back to this, I’ve admitted mine, so where are you on admitting yours?

I said the law will be just when you don’t block entry of people not culpable of anything.

Said this years ago, and I quoted Judge Andrew Napalitano saying the same thing.

September 2014.

I qualified what I said.

Yup it does, because in rural America they’re growing.

In fact, these people and immigrants in general are why the Midwest hasn’t demographically collapsed.

We need them. Period.

Here you go qix:
qix%20admits%20he's%20wrong

They even openly display the formula.

It means you were way off about both the origin, and the driver of the disease.

It has nothing to do with the homeless population; it has to do with the trash build up the rats are living in.

You’re taking something unrelated, and associating it with migrants. It’s more wall flinging.

I said this at the start:

Disease which was rampant pre-industrialization was dealt with in the 19th and 20th century by instituting infrastructure that created cleaner spaces. When L.A. let its utilities go, so too then did it let go of its protection. It’s cause and effect.

Yup.

Once again, we traded with the Soviet Union and they did things which were just as awful if not worse. Not just financial support, but military crack downs in support of despotic dictators.

Yet trading with them was a poison pill that brought them down. it undermined how the Soviet citizens viewed their country, and pushed the leadership to make friendly overtures (both internally and externally) to improve their image.

The free country effect is both real, and speeds up the demise of despotic regimes. The Panama papers exposed this as the fear driving the CCP. They fear what they’ve built is running out of their control.

Which is music to my ears. It makes China a in-the-process repeat of Chile.


#638

Again you are arguing against something I did not say, or event attempt to insinuate. You are, in fact, playing the race card, apparently the only card in your deck.

That’s what’s actually irrelevant. It makes exactly no difference at all from a public health standpoint (that is preventing or containing outbreaks). The relevant factors are the communicability of the disease, the vectors spreading the disease and the treatment options.

How contagious is TB? What are the relative infection rates between U.S. and Mexico? (Haven’t looked up Guatemala and Honduras, doing that now…)

Oh, look… What word did they use Slim? (I never even claimed that word was currently applicable, just that the conditions are being created under which it will be.) Why did that word come to be used?

And both Guatemala and Hondurus are on the WHO list of High Burden Tuberculosis Countries.

Just two random links from trying to look up the TB rates is Guatemala and Hondurus.

The U.S. rate of TB incidence was 2.8/100000 in 2017. 14.7/100000 for non-U.S. born.

Honduras TB Rate, 2016: 40/100000. Guatemala, 2017: 25/100000

And while overall Tb rates have been falling worldwide, in America at least mortality is up.

Waitaminnit waitaminnit waitaminnit. You know how you said the resistant strains come from overuse of antibiotics in farming, and I said the source of the resistance is irrelevant? Think about this for a minute: Tb rates among the populations most illegals come from are something like 8 times U.S. rates or worse. And where do those people largely work, according to you? Now correlation does not equal causation, but… Maybe it is relevant? Maybe somebody ought to be looking into that correlation? (that literally just occurred to me as I wrote this)

Is that what I said? Let’s see the pull quote. And who put the trash there, Slim? The rats? Are rats, fleas and ticks responsible for crowding and lack of sanitation? For homelessness and poverty? Or are you claiming that diseases don’t flourish under those conditions?

So where in any of that is any kind of border enforcement? What kind of border enforcement do you find acceptable?

This is pretty off topic for the immigration thread, so let’s table that here? (Yeah, I know, I’m the one that brought it up, seemed relevant, but just for a quick aside) I’ll just leave it at “I hope things work out that well”, because one way or another, trade will continue. But in depth discussion should be in the “trade war” thread, imo, though I have no particular interest in pursuing it. I understand your point well enough. Neither of us gets any say so in what actually happens, so we’re both just waiting to see the results over time, and we’re liable to be dead before there are concrete answers.


#639

It’s People! You’re eating People!

Soylent Green, coming to a formerly 1st world country near you!


#640

…Where did that come from?


#641

Then you’re admitting this wasn’t relevant?

It appeared to me that this was only included to imply intrigue where there wasn’t.

So here’s a relevant question; has incidence of TB been getting better or worse in these countries?

What’s happened, say, to Honduras?

In the year 2000, they were at 123 per 100,000. At a current rate of 38, that’s less than a 1/3 of where they were, and is equal to where we were in the 1960s.

So here’s the question I have to ask you qix; if rates of these diseases are improving, in the U.S., in Mexico, and in the countries of origin, and there have been no outbreaks of the disease south of us, why would there be an outbreak here?

I’m noticing less than 20 had the disease, and no one died.

This happened in Minnesota, which is likely less prepared than most states, yet response was prompt.
It also happened >10 years ago, when rates everywhere were higher.

If this is the utmost we can expect, I don’t seem to have much “hanging on my head”.

It’s why you mentioned it, and why I had put a stop to it since you didn’t know.

There are multiple forms of typhus, the human transfer variant is called Typhoid fever. Adjacent to that is Epidemic typhus; typhus passed on by lice.

What L.A. has is Murine Typhus, which is passed on by infected fleas.

It’s had such outbreaks since the 1920s. Outbreaks were contained by improvements in sanitation, but just like in the repair of their roads, LA has fallen behind.

According to your source, LA did. They put the trash in piles around areas, but didn’t remove it.

My impression is that this is the consequence of LA/California laws on recycling, and China no longer accepting the job for it.

Paying for it/building the facilities themselves has created bottlenecks.

Do what Eisenhower did; use the BP as a funnel guiding people into the guest worker program. Keep those who aren’t sick, and who don’t have a record. Prioritize those who have established history and can name employers who will vouch for them.


#642

Not at all. I’m pointing out that I didn’t claim that resistant Tb is caused by migrants.

You know nothing about my motivations. You try to insinuate racism at every turn, and imply or outright claim that I have made statements that nowhere appear in what I have written. FAIL!

You know nothing about what I know. For instance, I know that a person need not be sick with typhoid fever to be a carrier of it. And it spreads through lack of proper hygiene and sanitation (such as would be found among homeless encampments). And it’s a lot more common in Central and South America (and Africa and Asia) than it is here. I know that its caused by a salmonella bacterium, whereas endemic (and epidemic) typhus is from the rickettsia (spotted fever) family.

Typhus is, generally speaking, every where, it’s just usually not a problem. When it does become a problem, it’s a bell-weather of things to come because of the conditions under which it becomes a problem.

The “mistake” that I made was thinking both that , a: a typhus out break is an obviously indicator that conditions exist in which disease is a real and growing threat, and b: that you would be intellectually honest enough to admit that. At least one of those must be false.

Why did the outbreak in Minnesota happen?

Heh, I notice you didn’t address the increasing mortality rate of Tb. Just ignored that completely. Doesn’t fit your narrative, does it? So no, I don’t think that’s the utmost we can expect.

No pull quote, Slim? Are you admitting that you just made up what you wanted me to have said so you could attack that?

So, little to no border enforcement. Kumbaya.


#643

You’re not justifying it. You didn’t before either.

If this wasn’t just intrigue, I’ll have to ask you to explain.

Nope. If I want to accuse you of racism, I’ll tell it to your face.

My best guess was exactly as you said later; they’re coming from a tropical climate, therefore they must be the source of the disease for us.

But that forgets what I mentioned to you before.

26 million Americans, coming from Mexico. It’s closer to 40 million if I include all of Latin and South America

The CDC itself stated that the primary source of the disease they registered an outbreak from was from travelers; not migrants.

So as I said, your focus is disproportionate. If an outbreak is truly your concern, you’d seek to stop traveling both ways. Just as they did with Ebola.

And this isn’t Typhoid fever, just to be clear.

Which I acknowledged by pointing out L.A. has let its sanitation infrastructure slip.

So I was honest. But you’ve yet to be with me qix. That’s what I’ve seen you do here, demanding honesty, but not offering it in return. This is supposed to be tit for tat.

If you were honest, you would admit the Typhoid outbreak is at best tangential to migrants, who are not the driver. You should have done that the moment I brought up that this was due to fleas. Especially if you knew that beforehand.

Most of the infected in the outbreak were not homeless, so by tying the disease to them, you were trying to force a connection that was not there.

Among other migrants who were not inoculated?

Because we have, through the migrants, more people with longstanding TB infections we can’t save.

You didn’t respond to rates going down. In Mexico, or the rest. And your thesis is that conditions are getting more vulnerable to an outbreak, so why do we instead see it getting better?

You said this:

You were pushing a connection.

Eisenhower lowered illegal immigration by 95%. I consider that a success in border enforcement.

Consistent, longstanding results are what matter most.