Debt ceiling?

I’ve read more than enough about this battle. Haven’t been able to find an answer to one simple question:

Exactly how high do the Democrats want to raise it?

As high as Mitch McConnel wants it raised under a Republican Presidency it appears.

Having said that, Jeff Bezos and the Koch Brothers certainly deserve another tax cut like the one Donald Trump gave them. That will fix everything. What needs to happen is the poor paying their fair share.

A straight answer would be great.

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I have the sneaking suspicion that the actual number is so UGE that the Democrats and MSM are hiding it. But why aren’t the Republicans exposing it? Maybe they don’t wanna look bad when they do their usual and fold like a cheap suit.


Fair enough. There is nothing more full of crap than a conservative claiming to be fiscally responsible. Scott Morrison was one of Kevin Rudd’s most vocal critics when it came to handling the Global Financial Crisis, and when he become Prime Minister then proceeded to spend three times as much. Every right-winger politician is the same.

And it’s the same here. Nobody said boo when Donald Trump gave the wealthiest 1% a tax cut they didn’t need or deserve (resulting in a loss of revenue which of course means more debt). Nobody said boo when the Trump Administration handed out billions in contracts to questionable private companies to do what the government should have been doing in the first freaking place. Nobody said boo when Donald Trump himself used taxpayer money to prop up his failing businesses. This all magically became a problem the second the President has a (D) next to their name. Funny how that works out. The current talks about raising the debt ceiling now are even more bad faith than usual because Republicans are being silent on where these expenses came from.

So the answer to “Exactly how high do the Democrats want to raise the debt ceiling” is twofold:

  1. You really don’t care how high the debt ceiling get raised - this is just some more partisan bad faith arguments tht will magically disappear the next time a Republican gets elected.

  2. It makes a lot of sense for the US to not renege on its payment obligations so the sensible move is to raise the debt ceiling as much as it is needed to cover it. Just remember that the current talks are to cover a monthly payment of things that were purchased years ago.

Let’s remember that the debt limit needs to be raised to pay for spending under Trump.

You all do realize that, right?

That spending is approved and appropriated and then a year later our politicians engage in a game of political semantics pretending to be outraged when they vote to pay for spending that REPUBLICANS approved. Of course the outrage only happens only if a D’s hold the Presidency.

Patooka is right, it’s pretty hard to watch any of you feign outrage after Trump increased the debt by $8 trillion.

To your question, how high should the debt be raised?

Enough to fiix crumbling infrastructure at least.

I mean, we managed to spend trillions on a 20 year war and tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, why pretend to care now?


I am not impressed, haven’t read and don’t give a rat’s rear end for your carefully crafted political spin.

Do you have a straight answer to my simple question or not?

akaOldDog: Why can’t anyone answer my simple question?


Inflation is the real limit to spending.

Where the F did I say that? It’s not how I operate. I WILL ignore TLTR and BS spin which is OFF TOPIC.

A responsible answer to how the debt ceiling should be raised involves context and justification. It can’t be explained away in a slogan. I know you didn’t say my obvious exaggeration, but it is most certainly your attitude. You are not interested in a nuanced and thought out answer to the question you asked.

To spell it out, “I am not impressed, haven’t read and don’t give a rat’s rear end” is an answer that shows you are not interested in a good faith discussion about fiscal policy and simply want to “own the libs”. And guess what? That’s fine. Just be aware it’s the internet equivalent of “lalala I’m not listening”…

You want a thread on sound fiscal policy? Then start the damn thing.

You people always want to deflect, spin and obfuscate.

I want a damn number PERIOD

Keep posting your crap if you really like to watch your fingers moving.

1 Just because there are Rs who aren’t doesn’t mean that conservatives in general aren’t. As to that chart, Trump was handed a pandemic which resulted in a lot of money spent to develop vaccines and to boost unemployment and other benefits until the reopening of the economy. And the Ds are continuing those benefits to the point where employers can’t find employees.
2 Such as? I don’t know to what you’re referring, but speaking generally, the less government does, the better I like it.
3 I wouldn’t put it past him, but I’ve seen no evidence.
4 This is, at best, broad brush. I sure don’t like the perpetual growing of the national debt.
5 It makes a lot more sense not to incur the debt in the first place, let alone grow it to the point where we won’t even be able to afford the interest payments (which will be sooner rather than later if the Ds succeed in their effort to destroy our economy), like say, the Ds’ $3.5 trillion “infrastructure” bill wherein they’re redefining “infrastructure” to mean everything on the radical left’s wish list.

To answer OldDog’s question, I’d like to see the debt ceiling tapered to zero. It won’t happen, of course.

The “Progressives” aren’t saying anything about what Biden’s $3.5 trillion spending binge will do to the debt ceiling. Of course, the spin is “It pays for itself.” You have to be as dumb as AOC to believe that whopper. Not even AOC is really that dumb, but it makes for good copy in the Democrat controlled main stream press


Not sure what you mean by “handed” like Obama was “handed” and economy in free fall?

Trump was quite the opposite. Most economic metrics were on an 8 year uptick. For example, there were more new jobs in the economy during the last three years of Obama than the first three of Trump.

Now let’s consider the deficit under Trump.

2016 -$620,158
2017 -$714,863
2018 -$785,312
2019 -$991,278
2020 -$3,142,285

Now let’s consider what the Deficit might have looked like without the pandemic.

Year over year the deficit increased by an average of 14% under Trump (after declining under Obama for 6 straight years).

Thus, if we look at the trajectory, the last year Trump was in office, given his trend, the debt would have hit $1.1 trillion, putting the debt (while he was in office) at $4.2 trillion, though that does not include the cost of the permanent tax cut that were passed by R’s that certainly sharply elevate the deficit and ultimately the debt.

And remember, that Obama in his lat year had decreased the deficit to $469 billion.

Now in fairness, personally I think that’s exactly why Obama’s economy were showing some signs of stalling in 2015 and 2016.

Trumps spending certainly helped, the corporate tax breaks on the other hand allowed companies to initiate large stock buy-backs which in turn benefited investors most…


You probably know, I’m not for or against spending based on amounts alone, the important thing is how the money is spent and does the economy have the capacity or potential capacity to meet supply in the short or medium term.

In real inflation adjusted terms, the growth of the debt will taper off (all other things being equal) when the nation has reached a population balance (the number of children born is about equal to the number of deaths). If you aren’t familiar it’s fairly easy to work out the maximum population and when it will reach equilibrium. Of course immigration plays a factor. Without immigration the US would follow a host of nations where population is decreasing, notably Japan and Russia.

Once the population studies, the growth of debt should be in some proportion to the countries productive output which is determined by consumption.

In other words, productivity will be capped by consumption if productivity can keep up (companies won’t make more than people are willing to consume).

On the other hand, productivity can be the limit on consumption if there are real long term shortages in the economy.

The deficit is limited only by the econonomies capacity. The reason the debt is rising is because the economies capacity to consume is driven by the number of people working times productivity (which historically is increasing).

I don’t mean that Obama handed it to him. But it was a largely unprecedented problem.

Here I have to agree. Saying that spending pays for itself is an idea as dumb as the debt ceiling. And let’s remember, it isn’t just AOC saying this, Biden himself said it which only purpetuates economic ignorance in this country.