Does God concern himself with the minutiae in the scheme


#1

of man’s existence on earth?

I think yes.

For instance, the little people and not even jews/Christians (of course) in the book of Esther that God used for his purpose.

Jefferson did not believe God concerned himself with the minutiae.


#2

I’m a Deist; so of course I think not.

The proof is in what people endure in their lives…their fortune or misfortune. Georg Soros, godless, morality-free, has been a thief since boyhood - looting German Jews’ homes with his Nazi foster-father. Later he looted Wall Street investors. Then he turned to looting whole nations - as he arranged a run on the pound-sterling.

Now he’s looking to overthrow the United States by proxy. The nation which, in the words of de Tocqueville, is great because it is good. Or was good. Thanks in part to Soros’ elaborate schemes, morality among the young is disappearing and we are teetering.

Soros is richer than Croseus. And he’s lived a very long life

Compare that to the devout Christians of the Middle Ages. Misled and abused by the Pope and its surrogates, illiterate, ravaged by disease; living in sustenance and sometimes not even…with the Church always there to demand first dibs on every success…dying in their forties…they tried to live life according to God’s Law. SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS life went that way.

People in Africa remain ignorant and dying before age 30. Devout Christians in Venezuela are starving. Devout Christians in the Middle East are being SLAUGHTERED - by these worshippers of Satan disguised as Allah.

If God were concerned minutely about human affairs, none of this would be happening IMHO.


#3

I think you are in error. The “proof” you cite are a small number of trees. But they don’t tell the story of the whole forest. God created everything from galaxy superclusters and the whole space/time continuum all the way down to subatomic particles. If he did not care about what became of His creation or became so disillusioned with it as to abandon it, I doubt that He could even be a creator. You cite the evil that men do to others, and I’ve made the same argument in the past. God didn’t create us to be objects of hate or indifference. The thing is to trust God for your three or four score and ten, and bask in the untroubled enternity to come, in which a trillion lifetimes of trouble aren’t even a drop in the ocean, because the ocean is finite, and eternity is not.


#4

I understand the suffering argument when viewed from a perspective of universal love and equality. But something I’ve often thought is, suffering is a human perception. I mean, God designed the system. Who’s to say that God sees things like suffering or early death as a bad thing?

I’ve always wondered about the concept of God creating the universe out of love. I suspect it was more a form of entertainment. In order to make good drama, you need both positive and negative outcomes.

God could have created a situation where everything was very pleasant - and boring. He didn’t. He set up a system where a rival(Satan) could emerge. Where he could play a grand game out on Earth and see how many heads he can “win” with his disadvantaged strategy. The Bible itself even lays this out. He gives Satan the upper hand in winning people to his side on Earth. Now does that sound like a God who loves everyone and cherishes them, or one who sees them as little pieces on a giant game board that He’s playing for sport with one of his creations(Satan) that’s working exactly as He designed him(to challenge him)?

That’s how I see God. Neither all loving, nor malevolent. God made us in His image, and I think it’s reflected in the animal kingdom. As Men, we love some animals. I’ve seen people that seem to love their pets more than their biological children. We also frequently kill other animals for food and sport. That’s what we are to God. Some of us(like Elijah) are like God’s beloved golden shepherd. Some of us(like a random kid with Malaria) are like a mouse we casually lay a trap for in the crawl space and never think of it after we chuck its corpse in the garbage.

So I see a strong analogy to God and Adam. Both in charge of a lot of living things, and they each exercise varying degrees of care and love for the living things under their control. God cares about some people, but not others. Where the inexplicable suffering contradiction comes in, is that God loves everyone equally. There is no such thing as equality. And that is an extrapolation of God’s own actions.


#5

Which God experienced via the proxy of Jesus Christ. Something he didn’t have to do, but which he did specifically to convey “I understand, and I’am sorry that you must go through this.

> I mean, God designed the system. Who’s to say that God sees things like suffering or early death as a bad thing?

Jesus in the Garden. God using suffering as an explicit punishment.

> God could have created a situation where everything was very pleasant - and boring.

And inauthentic. You need people with rational decision making capability to decide to be with you, or all you’re creating is automatons programmed to love you.

I do agree to the creation of contrast, something he probably thought necessary to provoke genuine identity & love. Batman is made the more heroic, because he has the Joker contrasting his actions.

There are people out there who have a better sense of who they are and what they’re capable of, because life did not softball them.

> Where the inexplicable suffering contradiction comes in, is that God loves everyone equally.

Except, the suffering on the cross was explicitly for everyone. You can’t redeem original sin just for “those people over there”, it was all or nothing.


#6

Suffering and all evil in this world are the result of man. Simple as that. Disasters such as plague and natural occurrences are just that natural in nature they are neither good nor bad but systems of they would just like rain and snow. As for the OP question I would agree a little with FC. If God did not care the we would not be here. Why create something you know you will grow bored of or not care for. Going off the Bible man created the conditions we live in today. We were given Gods creation and we betrayed him.

God loves everyone and love takes many forms; but we cannot judge Gods actions by the morals of man. Would that we could then he would not be God. God is the ultimate good in existence and to say that anything is just a game to him or that he does not love his creation is just the pondering of fallen men.

But these are just the views of a simple Buddhist. Suffering is something only man can get rid of as we are the cause.


#7

Attempts to explain God in a “human’s” frame of reference are always going to fail.

Yes, we were created “in His image”, but we are certainly not God-like or divine. The minute you try to explain God in terms of “human existence”, or IOW, how YOU would do things, you are bound to failure because you can never fully understand God. That is the atheist’s playground. They are arrogant enough that they think they have it all figured out.


#8

Careful, there; the simple Buddhist is sounding precariously close to Christian! :smile:


#9

Well I was raised Baptist. Just because I left the Church does not mean I lost my love for the Lord. As I have said my Buddhist teachings are not incompatible with Christianity. Buddha is not a god nor does my sect recolonize any such Gods, in the sense of the word. They are simply spirts that have attained a higher level of existence and enlightenment that we seek guidance from.


#10

Curious. What led you to be Buddhist?


#11

If the fundamental cornerstone of the Christian Faith is that Man fell as a species and requires redemption that can only emanate from a unilateral choice of action by God himself (and that is the reality), then it must (and is) also true that this world is inhabited by a fallen human species.

If the world is inhabited with a fallen human species that are only partially mitigated (meaning they now have a dual nature) at any given time by those who have been quickened (redeemed) unto a position of acceptability to God via Gods grace administered through Gods mercy; then it must be true (and is true) that the natural state of this world is more favorable to those who are in possession of only a single “nature” (the fallen nature that they were born with).

If the world in its natural state is more favorable to the fallen then it makes perfect sense that the fallen will find more earthly success than those whose thinking is influenced by the presence of Gods Spirit who has quickened them.

This is not a “Law” but simply the most obvious, reasonable and natural course given the reality of a fallen species that resides at the top of the food chain, therefore the existence of Christians who do prosper in this world is the true mystery.

God certainly engages in the most intricate details within His Creation and He certainly has the power and capacity eradicate those who despise Him, God has also been very clear in declaring His intent to do exactly that at some point. However, the moment God does decide that “time is up” will also be the time that the age of mercy gives way to the age judgment; this will not be good day for humanity.

It is easy to witness the astronomical sins of worldly successful people like Soros and assume that God sees the sins of Soros like we do; graded as much worse and proof that God is not hands on deity. But that belief requires that God grades the manifestation of rebellion in the hearts of men by the same scale that makes us comfortable to imagine, but that “curve grading system” is a system that God has declared nonexistent.

It is the Christian who is the alien in this world, and the more any given Christian disciplines himself to submitting to the Christ nature that quickened him the more out of step he will become with this fallen world; that is why the adversary seeks adherents by promising worldly prosperity and privilege while God seeks adherents by promising persecution and strife.

The adversary bribes with the only asset he has, the dying things of this world. God on the other hand purchases men permanently for all eternity via His own personal sacrifice offered to a species within His own creation who did not even know they needed it.

If this contrast was reversed (meaning God rewarded His Church with temporal, earthly prosperity and withheld the same from those who reject Him), then the fallen nature of men would cause them to scramble into Christianity to have that earthly success; most would never even pause to consider the Christ (and the price He paid) to make their redemption possible in the first place.

So God delivers on His promise to meet our needs and give us whatever we need of earthly things to perform whichever role he has designed for us within His Church, God also delivers on His assurance that the fallen world will hate us as it hated Christ himself. For some this will mean large economic success because their role is to fund the Churches agenda, for most it will mean an abundance of other attributes that will be used to perform the work of the Church in this age of mercy.

Watching the fallen have the easiest time prospering in earthly comforts and influence is not evidence for Deism, the fact that every Christian always has precisely what they need to practice their Spiritual Gifts to good purpose is evidence that God is keeping His word and proving that we can rely on His Prophecies and participation in everything that we do in His Name.


#12

I don’t know. But how can you say that our current political instability and turmoil (to use an example) is caused by man alone. I can see how we can be responsible for that from a collective perspective, but one individual man or even large groups of men can’t have the power to. What a paradox, eh?


#13

Indeed, any kind of instability and turmoil can be caused by man, because man, in general, wants to be God.


#14

What makes you think it cannot? One man can terrorize a neighborhood. One man with enough power can terrorize a nation(Hitler, Stalin etc.). God does not have to cause trouble as man is perfectly capable of doing so himself as we are fallen, imperfect creatures.


#15

Oh, I believe Satan has a hand in it. For the fat lot of good it’s going to do him in the end.


#16

I believe the God states in the bible that the heavens were created for his glory…and to provide us with a means to distinguish seasons.

The Heavens Declare - The Heavens Declare Ministry

Psalm 19
1The heavens proclaim the glory of God.The skies display his craftsmanship.
2Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make him known.
3They speak without a sound or word;
their voice is never heard.[SUP]a[/SUP]
4Yet their message has gone throughout the earth,
and their words to all the world.


#17

(Genesis 1:14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


#18

You mentioned Hitler, but even Hitler didn’t do his evil work on his own, he delegated his works to many other men. But, if I am wrong, you can speak for that. I don’t know a lot about 1930’s Germany.


#19

Satan has no problem wth influencing many men…he brought these wicked men altogether…unprecedented…He worked hard at that. And his intent was to destroy the jews…satan’s goal.

do you know the story of Saul and the Amalekites? Their king Agag was allowed to live by Saul even though the LORD told him to kill the king and all of the Amalekites. He let Agag and his immediate household live. Then Samuel showed up and killed the king himself. It was too late though because some Amalekites escaped. They showed up again in the book of esther…Haman. They showed up again in the Nazis.


#20

I’ve always wondered about Haman’s connection - the “Agagite.” Isn’t that what they called him?