Executive orders


#1

How do you guys feel about Executive Orders (EO’s)?

Trump is on a pretty good pace and has so far signed more orders than his recent predecessors.

Now I suspect I will be told that many of the orders have been to rollback other EO’s, but I haven’t looked it up so I don’t know the percentages (EO’s signed for rollbacks vs EO’s dictating policy), but it is clear that Trump is using EO’s to dictate policy.

Are you guys ok with that? What if the pace he is on continues even after he runs out of EO’s to rollback?

Can you see a future where his EO’s create the precedent for using EO’s to circumvent Congress for things like gun control?

You might argue that firearm ownership is protected by the Constitution and that makes them sacred, but do you think the liberal opposite of DJT (riding on left-leaning populism) will care? Do you think that liberals might use EO’s after a situation like Las Vegas while emotional support is there, to create rules and restrictions (without outright banning)?

Now, unlike many of you, I support the certain legislation when it comes to firearms, but like you, I’d never want it accomplished via EO.

This is why principles matter.

Thoughts?


#2

Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind


#3

It is essential to distinguish between constitutional and unconstitutional actions by the executive branch. Many of Obama’s unconstitutional actions were not even given the formality of an executive order; just instruct or allow regulatory agencies to operate outside the law. Merely counting executive orders is meaningless. By comparison, Trump is an altar boy, pushing the Congress (kicking and screaming) to retake their status as a co-equal branch.


#4

I’m curious as to evidence that Trump is exceeding Obama on EOs.


#5

I don;t like EO’s and a bit of research on EO’s and you are not gonna be a happy camper. EO’s were created for the President to manage the Executive Branch of the Govt, that was their purpose. They were not used a whole lot for most of our history. But Obama opened Pandora’s Box and he used them illegally in many cases. History will call Obama our first elected Dictator and we are on the path for many more.

What we have is the ever 2 sided coin of Obama and Trump. I remember when I studied Political Science and my Prof open up with the best from of Govt is a Loving and Caring Dictator. Then he went on to say, the problem is absolute power, corrupts absolutely. Therein lies the rub. Many dictators across the world started out as the darling favorite son of the people, but the longer they stayed in office the more corrupt and evil they became.

EO’s was abused and often unconstitutional by Obama and Trump is having to undo by the same means that Obama did. Bottom line, this is NOT how our govt was ever meant to run. Wait till the next far left liberal ascends to office on his wave of Obama populism.

While I despise Obama for the Marxist socialist he is and for what he did to the Govt and our country, what I know is that history books will not put the blame on Obama and I agree, the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the GOP who could have and should have stopped him in his illegal tracks. Do you blame the 10 year old kid for his bad actions or do you look to his parents? Obama could have gone to jail, but the GOP just stood by and watched.


#6

You’ve been watching too much right-leaning media. That’s just flat out wrong…

Obama (276) is 16th on the all-time list behind some notable names like Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, and Bush.

And his total is a tiny fraction of the records set by the Rosevelt’s, Coolidge and Wilson (all over 1000).

Trump is on a pace to be 12th all time when accounting for time in office while Obama is 17th.

HEre is another good graph and it looks like you’d need to Amend your statement to say “beginning of our history”

Another by the total number of orders issued:

Not that I disagree with you, I really don’t know, I’ve never researched that all that closely, but I seriously doubt that Obama broke any precedents, broadly speaking, when it comes to writing executive orders.

Now, having said that, I see EO’s as a power that can be abused, especially by populist presidents and I don’t just say that because Trump is in office. I don’t like the idea of Trump’s Liberal opposite which is why, on principle, you should care about what Trump is doing (something you mention), though I think you think that Obama was the opposite of Trump. If he was there would have been EO’s about forcing gun control, mandating renewables and not just discussing who uses what bathroom.

If Obama was a “Marxist Socialist”, he sucked hard at it.

I don’t believe, personally, that the Constitution was prepared to deal with modern issues, at least as it’s written. I think we’ve passed the point where we could have a modern Constitutional Convention were people on the right and left could come together and compromise on ideas for the benefit of the nation. Frankly, I find that completely depressing because the fate of the world rests on this country getting its proverbial s**t together while we squabble over our differences. And to be clear, I don’t solely blame the right. I watch liberal media and right-leaning media (not for news btw, just to see what’s being said) and they all use inflammatory terms meant to stoke passions and emotion, not critical thinking and reason.

If our children will pay for anything it will be this generations inability to work together, because no matter how much you all think that Liberalism is a cancer it’s part of the nation you live in, and you cannot “cut it out” without killing yourself.

Even if you were to split the nation in two (which btw is exactly what the Russians want and history will look back on this time and Russia, with 1 1/0th the GDP played the US like a fiddle) no one but Russia, China, Iran, the DPRK are better off.


#7

HEY, do you EVER look at the charts you post, as I stated across history they are not used all that much when you look at the AVERAGES on the chart you posted…DUH, come on you do a bit better. I also noted the charts were used by the creators to show how Obama did not use so many…it AIN’T how many, its how legal and and out and out theft from the US Treasury is not a legal POTUS.

And of course there is always your ever selective reading…I dunned the whole EO thing no matter the party or the person…its the road to a dictatorship and we are well on it. Not sure how old you are, but if you are in your 40’s I suspect you will see a dictatorship in the US in your lifetime…bear in mind of the current nearly 50 dictatorships across the world most have been elected and most call themselves President.

Obama would have been a dictator but he was just a bit to soon on the scene. In order to crate a dictator you have to insure that he stays in office. We are close to that. Illegals now can vote in many locales and I would BET that they will be given the vote in Cali before then next POTUS election as will occur in many places in the US. Then there is Texas, whites are in the minority in Tex and if it goes Blue then the far left has in place the foundation for a dictator.


#8

LOL, you can do a bit better than say they weren’t used all that much throughout history, implying that Obama abused EO’s when the fact is, you have to go back to Chester A. Arthur before you find a President who issued less when accounting for the length of his terms.

Over the last 117 years, the average number of EO’s is 738 per year!

It’s clear in modern history they have been used and used a LOT. If you look at the averages over the last 117 years the number of EO’s per year is 738. Acting like Obama was an outlier is a distortion of the facts. Including what happened over 120 years ago in order to make your point is weak. The reality is more Presidents have used the power of EO’s then haven’t. 19 President’s issued less than 92 while 26 issued more than 92.

I’d say that historically, President’s have issued plenty of EO’s with Obama using the least number of EO’s going back 130 years.

Now, I think I said in my last post, but I will reiterate. I’m not a fan of the EO and I would like to see it curtailed greatly.

I also acknowledge that not all EO’s are the same. A president might issue a single EO that is worse than any one of 300 EO’s issued by other Presidents, so quantity is one thing. The content is another.

Should I remind you what you said?

Quote:

That seems to be pretty party and person specific to me.

Far as the dictator stuff, it’s funny because of Trumps actions, budding up with the world’s dictators and strongmen. Suggesting that NBC should have its licenses pulled because they insult him. Crying like a petulant child on Twitter whenever he is insulted or he wants recognition.

He doesn’t like the Russians, he wants to be the Russians. He wants to be Putin. He doesn’t want to answer to anyone.


#9

BS, your dodging, weaving and struggling to make a case that can’t be made. LOOK at your charts, trying to use an “average” when the bulk of EO, come from a handfull of people, I never said ANYTHING about how many Obama wrote, never mentioned it. Its not how many, its what he did in office, he is a an admitted Marxist socialist, wake UP! Trump wants to be a Russian…you have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Here YOU go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjDu5zwa4rM&feature=youtu.be


#10

Even if that were true that means what?

That Obama was opposed to an economic system based on inequality and on the alienation and exploitation of the majority (by means of the system of wage labor)?

That he considered the needs of the nation as a whole over the desires of a few individuals?

That’s HORRIBLE! :scream:

But we can drop the pretenses here. Let’s just agree to disagree lest this conversation trail off down another rabbit hole.

You implied it. If you don’t want me to misunderstand your posts, please be clearer.

From your first post on the topic:

This establishes a claim on quantity and then you follow up by saying…“Obama opened Pandora’s Box”…

But whatever…

He’s mad that he has to answer to Congress.


#11

You are dead wrong here. He has been trying to shame Congress into reclaiming their co-equal status and do their job on a host of issues: Obamacare, immigration, taxes, budget and, most recently, the Iran deal. The democrats have assumed the title of “The Party of No” and the republicans are caught between the lies that got them elected and the special interest donor class with their lobbyists who keep the gravy train running.

The one serious challenge to his EO’s is the ridiculous rulings on his immigration ban. I expect these to be struck down by much more than a 5/4 split by the Supreme Court. If the SCOTUS has an ounce of self-respect left it will be unanimous. The Congress could put an end to the abuses of the 9th Circus if they chose to but they are just too busy trying to undermine the President on everything else.


#12

You mean, do their job the way he believes it should be done, despite the fact that his approval demonstrates that his opinion no longer represents the plurality of voters.

He lost the popular vote from day one yet he made up some story about millions of illegal voters who (must have) voted against him while ignoring the fact that Russia hacked voter rolls and used a well-coordinated plan to sew dissension and post “fake news”.

It was demonstrated about 2 weeks ago how easy voter machines are to hack Now this can’t be pulled off by a fat guy in someone’s basement, but a nation with the resources to do it and the fact that the systems we have wouldn’t be able to detect even if we had been hacked. Now I’m not claiming we were hacked or a single vote was flipped for Trump by Russia, I have no idea (but neither does anyone else and that’s kinda the point), but we should care and secure our elections from hackers who unlike individuals, can turn, add, remove millions of votes.

If we fail to secure our elections against hacking, in a few years Israel, Russia, China, the DPRK and European interests will all be hacking our election voting for the candidate they want because this administration doesn’t seem to care. Well at least until it no longer favors them.

Want to see what it looks like when you cry “fake news” until it benefits you…

Blatant hypocrisy…


#13

It’s not really the numbers of EOs that are important; it’s the content, and the number of restrictions a President is adding (vs restrictions they are removing) per each of those orders:

When you move to that frame, you can see quite clearly that Obama and Clinton were adding more power to their office, and broadening the number of prohibitions the Government was enforcing.

You can debate the effect or the intentions, but the issue of the President broadening the scope of Government like this, isn’t trivial.


#14

I agree, something I already conceded, but I also said that I hadn’t thoroughly researched the topic.

When I have some time, I’ll look at it.

Thanks


#15

One EO I’d like to see President Trump sign is the one REVOKING the one issued by President Kennedy that PERMITTED public employees everywhere to unionize.


#16

Another EO that should go is the prohibition of assassinating foreign heads of state. Even if we never do it again it would give Rocket Man something to think about at bedtime every night.


#17

So where does the Constitution limit EO’s?

No specific provision in the U.S. Constitution and no statute explicitly permits or governs executive orders. I suspect on these grounds the “strict” constitutionalists insist that none are ever warranted given the lack of direction…?

There’s a grant of “executive power” in Article II, Section 1, Clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution, as well as a requirement” (in Article II, Section 3, Clause 5) that the executive branch “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed.” Executive orders are valid so long as they don’t violate other provisions and rights…?

In Mississippi v. Johnson (1866), the U.S. Supreme Court held that a U.S. president legitimately performs two basic functions – ministerial and discretionary – and that executive orders can legitimately facilitate each.

Then there was Truman who tried to nationalize steel and in only one of two orders ever overturned the Supreme Court (the other being Clinton’s order with respect to unions) invalidated Truman’s decree, on the grounds that he was attempting to make law (a legislative function), not merely carrying out (or “executing”) existing law. Presidents since that decision have tried to cite the specific laws they are acting under when issuing new executive orders.

Did Obama violate his power in the issue of EO’s? If so, why hasn’t there been more legal challenges from Conservatives? I mean, you can’t blame Congress, anyone can file a suit…If the violations are so flagrant, why isn’t anyone doing anything?

Since this is a discussion on EO’s, let’s have a conversation about abuse of EO’s.

State the EO and the grounds on which you object to it. Should make for an interesting conversation.