For those who don’t like Trump’s tariff policies …


I don’t get the argument. Because they’re economic idiots, we should be also? Our consumers get cheap fish. That’s good. The Chinese screw up their markets with tariffs on our goods. I’m struggling to see why we should care, apart from a general concern for humanity.


The argument is Chinese exporters get to sell their products in our markets because of our low tariffs. At the same time our exporters, who hire our workers, are put at a disadvantage or are denied access their markets because of their high tariffs. The ideal situation would be lower or no tariffs which allow all consumers and a works to share in the economic benefits of an open market. Trump is working the benefit of our exporting industries.


That’s my line: where has politics proven to be a better mediator of this issue than economics?

Where did politics make things better, and not worse? As far as i can tell, your entire viewpoint rests upon “Well, Trump is different, he’ll get it done.” That isn’t solid ground, that’s special pleading, while forgetting how fickle and temporary something like politics is.

Economics is more dispersed, and takes a longer view of things; politics is mostly theater, and wrapped around 4 year or even shorter time spans. It rarely looks beyond those horizons.

Meanwhile, as I said, we have proof, absolute fact, that nations who do nothing, prosper better than those who use tariffs.

This is what New Zealand did, ending most of its subsidies and tariffs, turning a weak, Socialistic economy of the 1980s, into one of the most capitalistic and competitive economies in the world, with living standards that bypass our own.

You can’t argue with results Send. Tariffs makes things worse, whereas lowering trade barriers, even when the other countries don’t, make them better.

Things do change, because economics forces them to. The Chinese aren’t the Maoist absolutists of the 1960s, and Ireland, Israel, Uruguay and New Zealand aren’t the 3rd-way, socialist experiments that Progressives insist we should all be. Instead, they’re freer economies with some (if not all) market indicators that are better than our own, they’re all better off for it.

The Supremacy of the result argues for itself, and in a world where people are interconnected, and can see those results, the ideas spread even more quickly across borders.

The whole world is becoming more economically free overtime of its own volition, it doesn’t have to wait for us to start pulling protectionist stunts.

You don’t do it because you create collateral damage out of your own citizens, who far outnumber the ones you claim to be trying to “save”.

No one can look at the result of the Bush Steel Tariffs, and tell me it was worth it.


I’ll NEVER understand why you seem to believe that other countries are better off than we are, AS. If that were so, NOBODY would be clamoring to come here and instead flooding into New Zealand, Ireland, Israel or Uruguay. They aren’t.


Heritage Foundation, economic freedom index:

Ireland and New Zealand are better than us absolutely. They’re poster childs of what Free markets can do to countries who embrace it, even if they’re latter day converts from Socialism of only a generation ago.

Can’t argue with results Dave. We’d also be better off if we were more free.

Their success, is a microcosm of what we used to be.


" Their success is what we used to be."

Yes, eight years of Obama took us there.


They why aren’t people FLOODING into those other countries if things are so much better than here? They aren’t. New Zealand is having an large influx of TOURISTS–likely because of the movies recently shot there–but not IMMIGRANTS.


Maybe you should try convincing Congress of that…


Obama certainly added to the pile, but our decline in economic freedom Started in ~2000, Sarbanes-Oxley, the Patriot Act, the insane growth in professional licensing requirements…

We haven’t ranked in the top 10 since 2010.

I mean, is anyone here convinced that the Heritage Foundation wouldn’t track this accurately?

C’mon guys, you gotta start being real here.


Aluminum plant reopens 60 miles from a nail plant shutting down – both credit Donald Trump.

Did that happen? Please point us to a source, so we can be informed, learn and consider the information

. I’ll link a response about unfair American tariffs too. It’s been a low-level thing in all directions for a few decades, but tariffs in all directions had been declining. Now tariffs and retaliation are front and center. Ridiculous. Of course, retaliation is just one of the shotgun of excuses Trump has used to support his tariffs when we all know from 40 years of talking on television that he mistakenly thinks the trade deficit means America is losing something.

Just QFT. This is the bottom line.

So they make something else, which is a distortion in the market to be sure, but they make something else we’re good at and they can use the cash they make to buy cheap fish. It’s awesome – for American consumers and fine for American workers. That’s the market’s answer to your concerns about the fish.

Yes, and everyone of us who believe this, including you, should insist on it.

Except you refute that with your own previous sentence at least as a general welfare idea. He is working for the benefit of our exporting industries at the expense of everyone else – that’s picking winners and losers.

Come on, man, Heritage Foundation’s been on the list for awhile. Bunch of establishment Republicans with Trump Derangement Syndrome – bunch of RINO liberals.


Libertarians sure did waste a lot of time and energy trying to convert conservatives to a consistent economic liberalism. It was never going to work, because liberalism requires a profound belief, down to the gut, that liberty is morally and pragmatically preferable to state power. But Trump has shown that left-libertarians were right all along: conservatives are just as infatuated with state power as the most wide-eyed progressive. This was true even when conservatives were saying the opposite. Now they’re just more open about it.


I think you’re right, but it’s not left-libertarians being right all along. Libertarians have criticized alleged Republican economic liberalism for 40 years. I can feed you links if you’d like. The only thing new is that Republicans are somewhat more open about their view of economics, the same way campus regressives have flat out stopped pretending they cared about core liberal ideals like free speech.

Is argument and debate a waste of time? Do you think it’s fruitful to attempt to “convert” a modern “liberal” to a more consistent liberalism?


It apparently doesn’t matter what the GDP does, or the stock markets, or the labor numbers, or the unemployment rates, or the welfare recipients numbers, public housing numbers. None of that matters. Nope, only that we are engaging in retaliatory tariffs as a trade negotiation tactic (which happens to be working quite well when renegotiating trade deals but that’s besides the point.) Doesn’t matter that since Trump’s been in office that my 401k has more than doubled in value. Nope, while Steve may have gotten a job in his industry and quit his McDummy’s job that he had to take to pay some bills, Joe down the street lost his job making tin cans. So, the tariffs are an obvious failure. Because Joe lost his job.

Damn you Trump. You and your evil management ways.

Free trade without conditions and open borders are the only solution! Because if Jose takes Joe’s job, that’s ok.


In my opinion, libertarianism has a real opportunity here to capture the center and present itself as a sane and grown-up alternative to the authoritarianism, hypocrisy, and hysterical immorality of conservatives and progressives.


Without taking a position on whether that occurrence would be good, bad or indifferent, i dont think that will happen.


It’s happened before. Reagan was arguably a libertarian move to the center. I’m not saying he was some pure libertarian candidate, but he won with a lot of libertarian rhetoric and policies.


I am very sympathetic to a number of libertarian positions, but some of them just don’t work.

For example, libertarians tell us that should not intervene in any aspects of another nation’s affairs. They generally seem to take a “hands off” attitude when it comes to foreign policy. If libertarians had been in charge and their philosophies had been enacted in the purest sense, the U.S. would not have gotten involved in World War II. Yet, what you supposed to do? Wait until the barbarians are the gates or on your border before you act to defend yourself?

There is a member here who wants to break the government monopoly on the issuance and maintenance of our nation’s money supply and monetary policy. He believes that private concerns should be able to issue money and that the market should determine the value of each privately issued currency.

I have careful pointed out him that that was tried in the 19th century before the Civil War and failed miserably. Yet he persists arguing that computers can correct all the problems that existed with the 19th century system.

Computers react in the way that they are programed. Until we get perfect artificial intelligence, they will not be able to react to every unforeseen contingency. Furthermore, who going to be the authority who will impartially program these computers?

These are only two of the issues I have with pure libertarianism.


Yes, just like F.A. Hayek did.

Blockchain can create restraints a bank simply printing notes doesn’t, so the comparison is irregular.

Further, the value of money was maintained better when it was backed by something the Government couldn’t print into infinity. This is an absolute fact.

Not a computer, an algorithm, and there are several different kinds.

If a problem arises, and a change is necessary you get what’s called a “fork”. After the fork, you’ll have a copy both of the original currency, and an updated one.

Who controls when or if a currency forks depend upon how that currency was set up.

Sometimes there’s a central body that decides it, sometimes it’s a vote made by the holders of the currency.

Some currencies can’t fork at all, and have other ways of updating.

I’m not a libertarian, I subscribe to Austrian economics. Because their ideas work.

Not because they have perfect prescriptions, but because they acknowledge we don’t know what the perfect prescriptions are, that’s why we have to let people try ideas out in the economy, and see what works.

We have to let things compete, and see best practices emerge from that.

If centralization still has merit in at least some arenas, that will show up.


Is it that good? And Trump dunnit? When things are good, I hear the president dunnit.

When things are bad, I hear the president doesn’t have that much power couldn’t have done it. He inherited it from the last president – just like Trump supporters and members of his administration talking about the budget deficit that remains out of control. Will it be Trump’s fault if the economy tanks on his watch? If the next 2007-08 happens during his term of office?

Tariffs working? Really? The tariffs are causing more bad than good. They’re only good for a select few folks. Don’t know what we’ve gained in trade deals. No one here and not even the president actually seems to cite what gains we’ve actually made. They just say, good deals! South Korea ain’t much different than it was, and we’re going to continue to smack them around with an old 25-percent tariff on pickup trucks until 2041.

The economy is awesome right! In 2007, it was awesome. Just like then, I can secure a loan I cannot pay. I don’t, but we all know what happens when banks are rewarded for failure.

For the record, I don’t deny that some actions taken by Trump contribute to a healthier economy, and I give and have given credit to him when it’s due – on these pages! But most of us agree, so they’re not long nor interesting threads unless CSB shows up and beats on AS with his MMT. Which means we talk about the really crappy things Trump is doing instead.

For example, capitalism?

Oh, libertarians can be quite violent. That old right to defend yourself is a central idea. And for the non-anarcho variety of libertarian, a good strong military to be used in defense of the people is a great idea.

And in World War II, we did wait till the barbarians were at our gate. That’s when we mobilized. We won. Just saying.

How you and so many other folks see money any differently from any other part of the economy, land and labor, for example, is beyond me. How you can possibly accept that the incompetents who populate the government can possibly know how best to manage the economy and the market is beyond me.

You discussed the 19th century, but the federal and state governments were heavily involved. It wasn’t even a free market for money. Money is an item of value that essentially smooths out a complicated barter system with absolutely no centralized plan in place. Money can and would work just like anything else of value, just like property, labor, strawberries and race cars.

Just a random article on the subject:

One thing is certain, the current government fiat money system leads to runaway government spending and the inflation tax. Politicians are not responsible enough to stop spending when they don’t have it. They just print more, and when the big banks make bad decisions, they reward them. That’s what your government money has done.

(/begin sarcasm) Fortunately, we had the Coming of President Trump to fix everything and give us a health economy through his supreme centralized economic management skills. (/end sarcasm)

Which, of course, leads to libertarian political values because it’s actually free market economics :wink:

What’s pure libertarianism? Of course you’ll get a lot of argument about that among libertarians themselves…

What other libertarian ideas do you have issues with? I assume immigration, but please move on past that before AS or Trump supporters notice. It’s been beaten to death.


So Mexico and now Canada have negotiated a new trade agreement that nullifies NAFTA and drops the restrictions that both nations had placed on American made products so that OUR Producers will have access to the same Markets that THEIR Producers have had all all along; their consumers AND ours.

So the Tariffs did their job, they applied pressure to both countries until they agreed to drop their Protectionist policies in Markets that they could not compete straight up with American Producers.

Most of the nations that Trump visited in his 1st 2 years agreed with his assessment that American Producers were not being treated with equity and that this must be corrected if these nations wanted continued unfettered access to the American consumers of their products.

Because most nations agreed (and renegotiated their trade deals) no tariffs were imposed and those events were not deemed “Newsworthy” to those for whom the only agenda that matters is trying to make President Trump look bad as he is succeeding at an unprecedented level and pace.

There were some holdouts, Canada, Mexico and China were the ones who gained the most media attention and to a lesser degree Japan; so tariffs were imposed on these nations as Trump had threatened to do.
Less than one year after those were implemented there is only japan and China who have not renegotiated (And Japan has now agreed and is on the fast track to a new trade agreement).

This leaves China as the only nation left that is still being punished with tariffs, they will also capitulate by opening their Markets and when they do these tariffs will be removed like all the others.

So keep trying to sell the narrative that it is your economic hero Obama who is responsible for the record turn around in the American economy over the last 2 years, this ridiculous claim will gain no more traction than the claims that Brett Kavanaugh was a serial rapist.

The educated know exactly why Trumps ideas are working and why they will continue to work.

The coffee shop experts can flee to Hong Kong and New Zealand so they won’t have to live in a prosperous United States where;
*Achievers are again being celebrated instead of punished by their government
*Where Justice is being restored to our Judiciary
*Where integrity is being restored to our Constitution
*Where Capitalism is being celebrated instead of being condemned
*Where unemployment is at record lows
*Where worker participation is rising at record levels
*Where the young can once again find jobs and opportunity
*Where draconian regulations are being reduced
*Where confiscatory taxation is being eradicated
*Where the GOP is finally showing some courage and acting like a legitimate opposition to the agenda of the Extreme Left.

Is the wall built yet? Nope
Is the deficit gone yet? Nope
Is our medical care system restored to mostly Market Force influence? Nope

Halfway through Trumps first term there is still a lot to do but he has accomplished an ENORMOUS amount in just 2 years in spite of having near universal opposition in Congress from BOTH Party’s until very recently, after the upcoming midterms the environment will be much more favorable to Trump so I have no reason to fear being optimistic.

Let the Academic “experts” and the Extreme Left and the Media Lemmings keep trying to sell their narratives of ignorance and deception; their failed prophecies are helping Trump succeed and that means America is succeeding :wink: