Global market actually seems to hurt job growth...


I have a number of friends in the tech industry who have been contracters for years. They work in major corperations like Microsoft, IBM, and HP. These are highly skilled and technical jobs. Now as a vendor-contractor they get minimal benifits. they can and have been laid off within a days notice and some havent recieved a raise of any kind for years even though they continually get great reviews by the host company.

The reason why they do not enjoy the benfiits of employment from these major corperations is because publically traded companies do not have to report the mass layoffs of contractors as they are not technically company employees. This enables these companies to artificially inflate thier stock prices as the SEC does not require the reporting of such mass layoffs of contracted employees.

It seems that were it not for the market, these contractors would be “hired” and employed by these companies gaining the benifits and opportunities actual employee of these companies enjoy: Opportunity for advancement, COLA raises, company benifits etc. So you have legions of vital employes at the mercy of the market. because the company they help make successful will only hire certain specialized employees which are harder to let go as it adversly effects the companies market value. the contracter is always one day away from the unemployment line.

So is this market loophole a help or a henderence to employment in these highly technical fields? Were it not for these reporting loopholes would these employees have a higher level of job security and opportunity as actual employees rather then temp workers?
It is a fact that these companies pay more to the contract agencies then they would a actual employee to protect their market stock value. So because of the market such workes are a day away from the breadline.


Where in the world do you get this stuff?

  1. I owned a consulting business fro several years, I consult to the IT industry at the senior level as a CTO, CTA, VP. Generally my job was to build, turn around and sort out a IT mess.

  2. No we do not report layoffs of contractors and the reason why is they are EMPLOYED by someone else or their own company, in other words they have a job, jus that the job here is finished. And NO this does not inflate stock prices

  3. I have never been given or give any benefits, that originates with their company not ours

  4. We do no mass layoffs, contractors are there to perform a mission and rarely do we hire on open-ended contracts almost all have a start and expected end date. If you are a contractor you were hired to do something and when you finish you leave, that is NOT a layoff, you job is over, done, we have nothing else for you at this time. I have had as many as 300++ working for me and at the end of 1 years all but a few to wrap up were gone, there was no more work, nothing for them to do…in this case the contract was to convert a Fortune 500 tech corp from a flat bridged environment to a fully IP addressed and to do a functional analysis of all desktops and physical networks to match function with hardware. We estimated it would take one year to do all the US and global locations. The corp did not have the excess organic staffing to do it and we were called in. We laid off no one, at the end of the year most finished and moved on.

  5. NO they do pay more as a general rule to contractors then they do employees unless they bring unique and specific talents to the table they are not available in house. Such as Cisco router support for a gang of Cisco 12000 series arrayed in a double fail over config. We paid that guy, $400 per hr + exp, 5 day min for initial setup, then billed at a per day rate after that. Trust me not many folks can config a Cisco 12xxx router, he was a bargain at any price.

Typically I will present a ‘blended’ rate to the corp. I will take all the job requirements by job title and build my model from that. Each job paying a different amount. I will add them up, average them out and develop a blended daily or weekly rate + expenses based upon a 5 day model. My standard exp rate was $300 per day x 5 day min (this included airfare, meals, rental car, hotel in the US).

Not sure where you are getting your info, but its WRONG!


So, you object to risk-taking independent contractors helping corporations improve their bottom lines?


My sister in law has worked for Microsoft for 5 years as a contractor for one of their major web groups. She has a MS in computer science and many years of previous experience. Shes a project manager for this group. Because she is billed as a vendor-contractor it allows Microsoft to fill the position with her as a temp worker indefinatly. However, if Microsoft wanted to at any moment they could let her go with no commitment what so ever. She hasnt had a raise in 5 years. she has worked for 70k for 5 years and her vendor company gets 50k above that. Does this keep her from advancing and earning more money and opportunities? yes. Would it be cheaper for Microsoft to hire her at 85K as a employee? yes. Why do they keep her and many other highly skilled people as temp workers? The market loophole. Most of her team and other teams of highly skilled workers are in the same boat at microsoft. Vendor-contractors are a differenct classification then the strait up contracter. So this is where I get this stuff. Your running a consulting business that gets paid by the job so you needed short-term contractors. Vendor-contractors are temp workers that function as permanent workers. totally different from the standard contractor your computer guy was. At Microsoft and other major corperations, regular classified contractors like your computer guy could only work 90days at the host company then take a forced 30 days off or Microsoft would have to hire them or offer benifits to the contractor. Vendor-contractors can be used indefinatly with no commitment from the host company. This loop hole allows key positions in a company and careers to be transfered from lagitamate full time positions to temp.


No it does not, if she was interested in higher pay she would apply elsewhere. end of story.


Years ago her position as a project manager was a full time position then the loop hole kicked in and most of those positions she studied for fliped temp positions. It was all about protecting the market strike price. If the loop hole closed they would have to hire these skilled workers as they play a vital role in keeping their business running. The temp worker would be flipped to a full time position and function as part of the team and share in the success of the company they are helping to build and maintain. Look her job and many other jobs would still need to be filled even if the loophole closed. Com on she is not a receptionist or typist not even in the same ball park or universe.
She cant apply some where else all the positions are now temp position. Similar positions to what she does have also fliped to temp positions as well and no this is not a “buggy-whip” situation. If you took all the project-manager, web developers and smilar positions out of Microsoft, HP, and other major tech companies, these companies would not be able to function. These are critical positions that must be filled, SEC reporting rules are disinfranchising many highly skilled tech workers.

You all have some interesting points though a little snarky tword those you disgree with but you do have some good points. I dont hate successful business owners, if they are successful good for them. The issue I have with many republicans is they only see the business owners point of veiw and fail or dont care about the employees that work for them t,hey appear to have very little thought to the unjust rules in the game. That attitude is why the other 53% or more have little tast for the Republican party. On the other hand all we hear on the other side is the issues dealing with the poor.

In the end we are too poor in the middle class to benifit from your rich guys capital-gains and shell company world. We are too rich to benifit from the dems poor agenda so we get burned by both parties. Thats why I hope a third moderate and more balanced party will rise from the ashes of the demise of either the republicans or the dems. One of them should go the way of the wigs.


It’s not a “loophole”. A company can outsource any services it wants at any point it might determine that to do so better served the best interests of the company.

As others have pointed out, your brilliant, essential employee friends aren’t working as independant contractors; they’re working for a firm that finds them work with other companies. Those other companies apparently find them so valuable that they’re willing to lose them to another, higher paying, company. If those friends want to find out their market value, all they have to do is threaten to quit…and see if their contract employer takes them up on it. Given that there is a nationwide shortage in all the job positions you mentioned, I expect that the employer might take them up on it…as they don’t seem to value them very much. As I said, there’s an easy way to find out.

It appears that people are being snarky towards you because you obviously have no idea of what you’re talking about when it comes to the marketplace of labor. Employers don’t just let essential employees become part-time, outside, help. They reserve that role for employees they can replace in ten minutes on the phone with the temp agency. If you think that any political party is going to change the way the marketplace for labor works, you’re a misguided on politics as you are matters of economics and the market. As for employers caring for you, if you want someone to love you, buy a dog.

Btw, it was the Whig party. “Wigs” are something that Dolly Parton wears…on her head.


Dead on! I spent many years as a contractor, Project and Program Manager. You land a gig, work hard to a good job and at some point in time you got back to the vendor you work for and tell them you want a raise. If you got your ducks in a row they agree. They typically made 20% over what the paid me and my day rate was $100 per hr 5 day min, back in the 90’s.

That said, MS is not big pay, except for those that have been there forver. I was heavily chased by them and turned them down, for more reasons than one, but money was part of it.


She hasnt had a raise in 5 years. she has worked for 70k for 5 years and her vendor company gets 50k above that. Does this keep her from advancing and earning more money and opportunities? yes.

She IS getting paid exactly what SHE THINKS she is worth.



What the hell was that? Just another collision with reality.


Good points. I was talking to her recently about our conversation on the boards here, she mentioned that since she brought the contract agency into the position she will be able to to switch contract agencies next year if she wants to and get a raise. It just seems odd…my mother is retireing after 35 years at Boeing with a nice pension and stock. My sister in law who is much more educated and more highly trained can’t get a full time job, she has worked at the same place for five years, she could work there another 30 like my mother, other then a little 401k she wont have nearly the benifits my mother with very little education has gotten. Times have certainly changed.


Yeah, times do that, always.

Pension? Your mother will be lucky if Boeing remains in a position to fund it. I’m betting that new Boeing employees aren’t in a pension plan. No? The auto bailout was precisely because of pensions and other benefits you cite. I don’t know your mother, but there’s a better than even chance that she will now proceed to enjoy a retirement period equal in length to her working career at Boeing. Where exactly is the money going to come from to fund that? It is precisely those costs that have placed a $2000 per car legacy burden on American auto manufacturers.

You want a pension? Promise to not retire before age eighty or, alternatively, not live five years past retirement. If you can get all your co-workers to sign on for that, pensions will be back tomorrow.


My biggest fear is what to be done with the whole generations comming up on retirement. We no longer have pensions. Social security is being eaten away at the edges. Unless you are the upper 15% and can live like Romney off your capital gains. You pretty much will have no where to go but on the street. If your pultry 401k doesnt run out on its own, medical bills will clean out your retirement account. I see America will be hard hit either way by large amounts of homelessness as traditional safty nets of the elderly continue to be riped away. already about 45% of our current retirees depend on social security for 80% or more of thier livelyhood and 70% depend on medicare for there healthcare. We are headed into a major crisis.

I’m a disabled vet so I wont be effected as much as most but still I can see direction we are headed down and it isn’t pretty. We can expect a big jump in elderly homlessness and forget about a real emergency in the emergency rooms there won’t be any room.

America will be a shining light for elderly homlessness at the rate we are going.

It’s sad.


You just realized this? Obviously, you haven’t been reading your Mark Steyn. If you think your scenario looks bad, try to imagine what it’ll be like if and when we default on our debt.


And wait until all that “quantitative easing” works it’s way into the system, especially if that happens about the same time as the debt crisis explodes. America is in for a very rough few years any way you look at it.


Boening is laying off BIG TIME! Friend of ours works in personnel and she says this is the worst she has seen in 16 years there.

Trumpka, the UNION boss says we are not running out of money, the ‘fiscal cliff’ was fabricated crises and not real, there is NO SUCH thank and our debt is NOTHING to worry about.

Since when did it take any smarts to ever become a Union boss?


I’m thinking it’s less about lack of smarts than lack of honesty.