I am from the SF bay area, and am slightly less than conservative. However, discussing my beliefs with people that will simply reaffirm them isn’t any fun, and so I’ve crossed enemy lines to enjoy the good old sport of political debate. I look forward to learning more about contrasting opinions, and hopefully dissolving some of the senseless stereotypes of liberals that I’ve seen lurking around these forums.
My username is derived from To Kill a Mockingbird.
If this is true you would be the first Liberal to come here that would learn about the “contrasting opinions”, all the others just steadfastly argue against the stereotypical “Conservative” views that their Leftist indoctrinators have told them about Conservatives.
We don’t have a different plan for “helping the poor” that we would like to debate, we “Hate the poor”.
We don’t have a legitimate argument regarding environmental responsibility, we just want to “destroy the air, water and animals for :devil: ***profit!***”.
We don’t want to improve education by introducing competition and market forces, we just “Hate the children”.
We don’t have good reasons for our National defense ideas, we just “want to enrich corrupt war mongering corporations because we are filled with fear based on ignorance”.
We don’t think babies have a Constitutional Right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, we just "hate women and want them relegated to second class status based on the ramblings of our favorite flying spaghetti monster ".
We don’t oppose Communism/Socialism because it is a killer of individual Rights and an historic proven way to crush prosperity and opportunity for all, we are just “Racist’s who would love Obama’s ideas if a rich white guy wanted them”.
We don’t oppose gun control because criminals ignore the law by definition so only law abiding citizens are stripped of their Constitutional Rights, we are just “Paranoid, in-bred hicks who are stuck in the past clinging to our guns and ridiculous religious ideas”.
We don’t oppose draconian taxation and regulation on businesses because these costs are just passed on to the customers anyway and when they reach a certain level they chase private sector jobs away, we are just “schilling for the rich and laughing as the poor are crushed under our expensive heels”.
Each of these topics has always been avoided by our “Liberals” when they are asked to defend the plausibility and history of their ideas and/or refute (or even recognizing) the ideas of Conservatives on these topics, we just get the cliche indoctrination points repeated ad nauseum.
I hope you are armed with the genuine attitude that you described in your op, you would be the first sign of intellectual integrity in a Liberal on this board if you do. I admit that you are off to a good start by admitting that you view us as the “Enemy”, most Conservatives are still telling themselves that Liberals do not view us this way in spite of ALL the evidence to the contrary.
For the record, I have decades of reasons to despise Liberals (Bay Area Liberals in particular) so I am without question someone who views Liberals as the personification of Evil. All the consequences of their actions are absolutely intentional and malice was the motivation, I will never utter the excuse “unintended consequences” to moderate the blame for Leftist destruction.
I find it extremely amusing that you can so steadfastly denounce stereotypes and judgement while simultaneously grouping every single liberal into “the personification of Evil.” This hypocrisy, along with mass demonization innately, are responsible for the pathetic bureaucracy that our country has found itself treading through. Remember that we are all Americans and individuals, and just as no two liberals are exactly alike and equivocal neither are two conservatives. You really think we’re motivated by sheer malice? To reduce a whole group of human beings to your inaccurate and clearly biassed perception of them is simply immature.
I am friends with many conservatives whom I passionately disagree with, and yet they do not represent any of the overly simplistic stereotypes that you have listed. I’m sorry that, without any knowledge about me except that I am (proudly) a bay area liberal, you perceive me as a purely malicious demon. Doesn’t sound like I have much of a chance, do I?
And for the record, that bit about “crossing enemy lines” was a joke. Like I said, we’re all Americans and human beings. We can fundamentally disagree completely and still relinquish the courtesy of basic decency, no?
I never “denounced stereotypes”, I like stereotypes and labels also. They are a great way to encapsulate the belief structure of the indoctrinated.
I “denounced” using false stereotypes as a means to avoid defending ideas that cannot withstand scrutiny, or “Liberals” for short.
I can prove every stereotype of the Left that I mentioned and many others, no Liberal can establish any of the common Leftist accusations of Conservatives that I mentioned.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
We are off to a typical start, one response post and you have already proved that you do not own a dictionary.
I have been “demonized” by the Left for 40 years, about 15 years ago I decided that this could not possibly be “unintended consequences” because no group could be that dumb for that long.
So yes, I “demonize” Liberals now, openly and loudly with no possibility to misunderstand my intent.
The reason I do this is to contrast the difference between having convictions and a respect for honesty with the typical lies and condescension that Liberals offer to try and cloak their true attitude.
Unlike a Liberal I am not ashamed of my opinions or unprepared to defend my opinions, truth is a concept that every Liberal must abandon the moment they try to defend their agenda and the ideas they are seeking to implement.
Yeah, Conservatives are constantly trying to increase bureaucracies while those “Liberty loving” Liberals are fighting tirelessly to dismantle this corrupt, bloated and ineffective government.
Sure glad I wrote the “Liberals must abandon truth” line when I did, you are setting records here for how fast you can step in it.
There is nothing “American” about the Liberal agenda and every aspect of Liberalism condemns rugged individualism, when Liberals win they use a government gun to force collectivism on everyone.
There is most definitely not a “we” anymore and there has not been for a long while.
The Left decided long ago when they declared war on everyone who does not work for the government and used their authority to destroy the Rights and property of every non Communist group that they ceased to desire a “we” and instead wanted to destroy every innocent taxpayer, business, religious person, child and poor person in the United States.
I would like to see you prove that.
I do not “think” that I*** know*** that Liberals are motivated by malice.
I have been destroyed by Extreme Left legislation 5 times since 1982, had my industry regulated out of viability and had to completely restart my life with nothing but mouths to feed and a pile of equipment that had been rendered useless and worthless by the lies of Liberals in California.
AB-32 was the most recent, it rendered everything I own scrap metal and bankrupted countless good men who never hurt anyone or anything. Their kids, homes and life work meant less to Liberals than one bite of the sushi they stuff into their moocher mouths or one drop of 3 dollar a cup coffee they pour into their lying mouths, they proved this was malice by not only voting for AB-32 but then specifically voting to not even temporarily suspend its implementation until the recession was over.
How much you want to bet that I can guess which way you voted on these 2 items?
You know, as you were breaking my “stereotype” of Liberals being of like mind and the personification of evil.
I can prove my accusations, time will tell if you can do the same.
Let me guess “conservatives” like Romney?
I would bet that you cannot make and have never even heard a legitimate Conservative argument, I would also bet that I can make the Liberal argument on any subject that is a topic of contention today better than you can.
That is because actual “Conservatives” research every argument, not just the spin their indoctrinators give them.
We have plenty of self described “conservatives” on this site who are nothing but Establishment GOP Liberals who agree with the Extreme Left on every point of principle, I have no doubt that you will have a wonderful relationship with them just as you do with your Bay Area version of “conservatives”.
Nope, not much at all.
The more times my family is destroyed and I have start over from scratch the less slack I cut any Liberal old enough to know better, at 48 my capacity for tolerance of the evil monsters who attack everyone I care about in every election has been shortened to the length of a babies eyelash.
I would love to be proved wrong however, I have been hearing about these “Independent minded Liberals” for years but they are as elusive in debate as Bigfoot.
No, it was not a “joke” it is precisely how your brethren treat every decent American.
I have absolutely nothing in common with Liberals, they hate everything that I love they love everything that I hate. There is not one point of commonality that would justify calling Liberals a “we” with any actual American and “Human Beings” do not defend the slaughter of 60 million innocent babies.
I am always “decent”, I just don’t disrespect those I talk to by misrepresenting what I think of their chosen alliances.
Liberals feign “unity” while working tirelessly to destroy the innocent and reward the worst of behaviors, actions speak louder that the empty words of those who execute the innocent from the privacy of a voting booth.
Maybe someday everything you have will destroyed by the votes of evil ideologues who you have never done anything to. Maybe whatever you do for a living will also be classified as a crime so you have to watch your entire life’s work destroyed for nothing but the jealousy and vindictive hate that flows through the veins of godless liars.
Then you can be an example for the rest for us as to how to be “comrades” with those who destroyed your life for nothing greater than their own amusement and petty resentments.
Stereotypes are all innately false, you have no right to judge millions of people as a single one.
As you say, even among your fellow “conservatives” there is no unanimous consensus. Just as I would be wrong to say that all of you “conservatives” are one and the same, you are wrong to say that all of us “liberals” are so.
Please do, I would love to see your “proof.”
It’s clear that nothing I say or do will convince you to overcome your personal biasses, it would be a waste of time. Your arrogance amuses me, it’s nice that you think your own capacity for judgement is so absolute.
OMG dude SO TRUE, it’s like you know me. You know, my point was not that conservatives are solely responsible for bureaucracy but that both sides get so caught up in demonizing the other we forget about the issues we’re trying to resolve. Thank you for demonstrating this point.
Uh oh, I better undo all that gun control my comrades and I were pushing for before you start the next civil war.
Go home, you’re drunk.
It’s too bad liberals have a complete monopoly on everything that happens in this country.
It’s really impressive that you know everyone’s opinion better than they do. Please tell me what I think based on a couple posts on an internet forum.
Arguing with you is like arguing with a cracked out paranoid schizophrenic. You are so narrow minded that it doesn’t matter how many legitimate arguments are presented to you, they are all equivalent.
I was joking, because I’m conscious of the fact that other people are human beings even if they disagree with me.
Okay seriously, you’re making me rethink gun control. How do points 2 and 3 not ring as contradictory at all to you? I could be wrong but I’ve heard that denying millions of people the title of “human beings” is less than decent. In fact, I think I’ve seen that somewhere before. Oh, that’s right! That’s what the instigators of every genocide ever used to rationalize their actions.
But thanks for your honesty, and thanks for demonstrating how to properly engage in civil discussion.
It sounds like you just need somebody to blame. I might pity you more if not for the impression that you would actually try to kill me in my sleep simply because of my political views.
Having fun yet Finch? Some of our members are in desperate need of social graces. I have had some fun comments thrown my way for being Libertarian-minded. Though I do try not to make or take things personally here. However, I would point out that, in our current political theatre playing out in Washington and around the country, Liberals have given the impression of sacrificing personal sovereignty for government bureacracy. I know a few Dems who at this moment I would vote for if put into a position to, but not many. I disagree wholeheartedly with this idea of government can solve all. Government, as a famous president once said, IS THE PROBLEM. However, I too would like to pick the brain of an opponent. Where does your loyalty lie? With which philosophy and why? Do you support the president and the dems, the republicans, both, or niether and again why. What is your moral code based upon, and what do they consist of? Do you believe, like many Democrats I have met, that the government is a benevolent force for good and needs to be put into more areas of our lives and if so which ones and why? Allow me a more civil conversation, and a chance to point out the flaws of liberal methodology, if you would please.
Every person who is ashamed of their chosen alliances says that.
I am aware of no significant differences among Conservatives, I do see a great chasm between Conservatives and those who despise the Conservative ideology while still trying to claim the label.
I have no problem with that generalization, I am proud of what I believe and consider it an honor to be lumped in with all Conservatives. That is why I despise the GOP, they have allowed the filth in the Demoncrat Party to convince them that they will get along if they just abandon all their principles.
No, I am absolutely correct in saying what I say about Liberals.
Keep posting then, at your request I will point out all of the Straw Men diversions you interject to flee the corners you end up in and I will point out every time you respond to a post by conveniently ignoring all the points that condemn your position.
You are almost right, the only thing a Liberal could do to “convince me” otherwise would be to see a debate to its conclusion.
That will never happen.
All you have to do to prove my “arrogance” is unwarranted is prove me wrong instead of proving me right, you have ALL the power.
Who are these “both sides” you keep referring to?
There are the Liberal Demoncrat’s and the Liberal Republicans, Conservatives have not had a seat at the table for almost 20 years and Conservatives have never had a majority.
Thank you for demonstrating that your “education” begins and ends with whatever is spewed on MSNBC.
Your comrades have already declared war, there is no group responsible for the introduction of violence and force against Americans other than your brethren.
But I do understand how your embrace of the Liberal culture translates into an inability to even consider taking responsibility for your actions so I get why you flee to blaming others as a knee jerk reaction.
By the way, at your request I will point out that last quote of your is “typical Liberal evasion of responsibility”.
And that is typical Liberal misdirection, lies and cowardice.
Are you sure you want me to keep proving my points?
More deflection to avoid facing, responding to or defending your actions.
I identified one State in this rant, California.
I assumed that you took one action based on your “Bay Area Liberal” claim.
I predicted that you would reject all responsibility for this one point of unjust destruction and attack on the innocent.
You are pissed that you cannot deny any of it so you are trying to misrepresent and redefine my statement, it won’t work as I have argued with many Liberals.
You and I both know that everything I suggested about you regarding the baseless attacks against innocent Californians is absolutely true and we both know that you cannot defend your actions with any credible argument. You prove that by trying to change the subject and leaving out all the points that you cannot defend against.
More typical Liberal misdirection.
I know your position better than you based on just one point, your admission that you are a Bay Area Liberal.
Just think how easy it would be to prove me wrong, all you would have to do is make one cohesive Conservative argument to prove that you are not an indoctrinated sheeple and demand that I make one argument as a Liberal on any subject that you choose to prove that I am the brain dead one who only listens to one side.
Seems pretty simple doesn’t it.
You are not “arguing with me”, you are avoiding arguing with me because you already can tell that you have nothing to offer that I have not considered and you already know that you cannot defend your positions.
You are avoiding “arguing with me”.
I already showed how you dehumanize everyone who does not work for the government and how you support destroying their lives and property rights, did you think that editing out that part in your “quoting” would make it magically disappear?
Like a cat who thinks if it closes it eyes others cannot see it?
Like all the loggers who you destroyed?
Like all the farmers you destroyed?
Like all the commercial fisherman you destroyed?
Like all the refinery workers you destroyed?
Like all the roughnecks you destroyed?
Like all the Miners you destroyed?
Like all the equipment owners you destroyed?
Like all the Lumber Mill workers you destroyed?
Like all the Manufacturing workers you destroyed?
Like all the energy production workers you destroyed?
Like all the transportation workers you destroyed?
I could list 25 years of legislation in California that has destroyed all these industries and you would not only support them all but you would have to lie through your teeth to claim that you ever gave a rats ass about one of those innocent families that you destroyed or spent 10 seconds wondering how they would survive.
Liberals “dehumanize” everyone except their own despicable mooching crowd that feeds like a parasite off the productive while demonizing them into extinction.
Would that be the 60 million babies that have killed with the blessing of you and your fellow Liberals?
Or are you referring to the fighting of a war to keep the institution of slavery legal by your fellow Demoncrat’s?
Oh that’s right, since the entire history of your evil ideology is littered with murderous monsters and void of a single hero you have no choice but to accuse others of your own guilty actions to make you “feel justified”.
“Typical Liberal” by the way.
My discussion has been civil, your problem is that the content of my words exposes all the the things that you think you have hidden from view.
I engage Liberals with the same tactics that Liberals have used for decades against my side, your just upset because you know I am speaking the truth when I say it.
And thank you for rushing so quickly to prove that you cannot and will not even attempt to defend your side of the isle and for fulfilling every stereotype of the indoctrinated Liberal so quickly.
Of course you think this.
You attack the innocent, then blame them for being attacked.
You support murdering a million babies every year then feign concern that a Conservative might “kill you in your sleep”.
Liberals are the cowards who attack the innocent anonymously, Liberals are the ones who try to excuse their racist, evil, destructive, murderous, immoral agenda as a mere “political view”.
Only your side “sneaks up when their target is sleeping”, that is the way of the coward so if it happens to you it will be from your own side.
Finch, that’s all you need to know about RET. I kinda chuckle and think of him as a double agent, a secret liberal who enjoys painting this monstrous conservative characature of himself. He’s not, he’s quite sincere and thinks he sounds most monstrous. Go ahead and poke at him and I’ll grab the popcorn .
Thank you! I’m sure having a blast but I appreciate the chance for a debate rather than an argument. Apologies for the lag. Cheers!
I’ll start with the moral code question, since my political beliefs are an extension of my own morality. Although I have had experience with religion (namely Christianity), I am agnostic. That is to say that I believe all ideologies are equally worthy of consideration – because nobody has ever died and lived to tell about it we cannot conclude what happens when you die; we cannot rule out the Christian idea of heaven as impossible just like we cannot rule out the possibility that we are reincarnated or that nothing happens at all. I generally choose to hedge my bets with science because science offers the most logical evidence. Science is constantly evolving, never stops asking questions and never stops attempting to correct itself, theorizing based on the available information and (ideally) not jumping to conclusions. Perhaps my biggest qualm with organized religion is that I’ve observed it’s tendency (not always) through blind faith to stop people from asking questions. The idea that we have all the answers, that anything is perfect and cannot be improved, that you must only believe outright and unquestioningly instead of thinking critically and continuously examining other possibilities, is one that disturbs me.
Furthermore, I do not need God. In my opinion, looking up at billions of galaxies each with billions of stars and knowing that we are a coincidence, that the evolution of life is statistically quite improbable but made possible by the sheer expanse of the universe, that we are a “Pale Blue Dot” of utter insignificance, is more humbling and more inspiring that any omnipotent being(s) could ever be. And if everything is meaningless and coincidental, if ultimately nothing matters and nothing happens when you die, that is all the more reason to be a compassionate human being, to make the most of limited time on Earth, to give meaning to the things that are important to me. If I have free will, and the choice between being a positive influence on other human beings through compassion or being a negative influence through malice, why not choose compassion? Especially if it doesn’t matter anyway.
With that said, I suppose I could be called some sort of socialist. Not outright, and nowhere near communism (I believe in modulated capitalism), but I believe that democratic socialism strikes a balance between personal freedoms and government regulation that is necessary to balance human nature and the potentially abusive localizations of power known as government. Communism doesn’t work because it doesn’t cater to human nature, although the notion of everyone sharing is a nice one, it allows no space to grow as an individual and to stake one’s own claim. True free market capitalism doesn’t work because people will exploit others, an unregulated free market results in monopolies and abusive big business that exploits the lower class to extremes, people who can’t work die in the streets. Somewhere in-between is a nice compromise, a world in which people are free to do as they please and the government doesn’t over regulate but does ensure that everyone is equal in the face of the law, and that everyone is accounted for ( i.e. through welfare programs).
I’m much farther left than the democrats in many regards. I favor moving towards a more socialist system similar to that of Sweden and Norway, in which taxes are indeed higher but so is the quality of life. Obama and the democrats have disappointed me, although this is largely a result of the bipartisan bureaucracy that is congress, but nonetheless he got my vote out of fear that Romney actually had a chance.
Yeah, sorry I censored you but in the interest of saving space…
You seem to be confusing “proof” with “repeatedly making ridiculous claims”. Nice try, but I’m afraid you are not a reliable source. You have “shown” me nothing, nor have you refuted any of my claims in a logical way. Your extreme demonization of liberals and of me personally have shown that I could say just about anything and you would attack it, that you are so biassed it would be pointless to argue with you as I cannot make “one cohesive Conservative argument” seeing as I am not a conservative and you won’t take me seriously. Feel free to try again and have a real debate instead of senselessly throwing out unproven and unreasonable claims.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.