Hitler, Gosnell, the corruption of indifference and the race card


#1

This article discusses the apathy found not just in today’s societies, but links it to what happened in Germany during WWII. Gosnell is the abortionist who is being tried for murder and harming women in Philadelphia. And now his crimes are being defended by using the race card. Although it is a topic of barbarism, I felt the author made the links quite eloquently. (I am in the process of reading the actual indictment…200+ pages, but quite interesting.)

Concentration Camps, Abortion Clinics, and Selective Ignorance - Susan Stamper Brown - [page]


#2

[quote=“ClassicalTeacher, post:1, topic:38836”]
This article discusses the apathy found not just in today’s societies, but links it to what happened in Germany during WWII. Gosnell is the abortionist who is being tried for murder and harming women in Philadelphia. And now his crimes are being defended by using the race card. Although it is a topic of barbarism, I felt the author made the links quite eloquently. (I am in the process of reading the actual indictment…200+ pages, but quite interesting.)

Concentration Camps, Abortion Clinics, and Selective Ignorance - Susan Stamper Brown - [page]
[/quote]And people wonder why I call those who support a women’s liberty to murder, evil.


#3

Tiny: There’s no question that abortion is evil. Like this article stated, selective ignorance is a cancer which has afflicted our world for most of the latter part of the 20th century…and it seems to be getting worse. I started to read the indictment and it is quite surprising. There are things in the first few pages that I never thought I would see in a legal indictment. There is a link in the article (a “here” link) to see the indictment. Just the first few pages are quite revealing. This so-called doctor should be put in prison for life.


#4

Here’s more on this case from the U.K. It just gets worse…

Kermit Gosnell: ‘House of horrors’ abortion clinic worker testifies in capital murder trial that she killed at least 10 infants delivered during late-term abortion by snipping their NECKS | Mail Online


#5

[quote=“ClassicalTeacher, post:4, topic:38836”]
Here’s more on this case from the U.K. It just gets worse…

Kermit Gosnell: ‘House of horrors’ abortion clinic worker testifies in capital murder trial that she killed at least 10 infants delivered during late-term abortion by snipping their NECKS | Mail Online
[/quote]So, let me wrap my head around this. If we outlaw abortion for convenience, that would cause women to trust unlicensed procedures, and atrocities would occur that includes murdering women, and infants, and infections, botched procedures, etc? That is what pro abortion Republicans keep saying and they continue to spew that a woman should be at liberty to choose medical clinics who perform “safe” abortions, so as to not need to go underground. Is that what they are saying?
This is not an isolated incident. We will see more and more of this sort of horror.


#6

You are correct. This is just another “dirty little secret” of the abortion business. There have been cases like this since 1973. The big lie is that there is no such thing as a safe abortion. Abortion violates the woman’s reproductive system. Once conception takes place, the cervix closes tightly so that the baby cannot be expunged. Sometimes it happens as in the case of a miscarriage. In any case, the cervix is then called a “green” cervix in that it is closed for the 9 months while the baby is growing. In an abortion the cervix has to be forced open–which is not natural–obviously. This alone can cause sterility and an inability for a woman to carry a child to term in the future. There are just so many wrong things about this evil. It is totally a violation of the natural processes of a woman’s body during pregnancy not to mention the violation of the innocent life she is carrying. Women have so been brainwashed to the mantra of “choice” that they can’t seem to see beyond that. Abortion is just wrong on so many levels.


#7

As you know…I don’t share your views on abortion. Nevertheless…this guy is a Little Shop of Horrors…a truly evil and indifferent murderer… and his staff deserves jail time as well.

As an aside CT…your comments on the risks of abortion are grossly overstated and out of context. The fact is that delivering a baby carries 10 times more risk of serious complications to the mother than does a 2nd trimester abortion…and VASTLY more risk than a 1st trimester abortion which makes up over 85% of cases.


#8

I know Cam. But I appreciate your comments nonetheless. :yes:


#9

[quote=“Cam, post:7, topic:38836”]
As you know…I don’t share your views on abortion. Nevertheless…this guy is a Little Shop of Horrors…a truly evil and indifferent murderer… and his staff deserves jail time as well.

As an aside CT…your comments on the risks of abortion are grossly overstated and out of context. The fact is that delivering a baby carries 10 times more risk of serious complications to the mother than does a 2nd trimester abortion…and VASTLY more risk than a 1st trimester abortion which makes up over 85% of cases.
[/quote]My wife had an emergency abortion in the second trimester. We still counsel women who have had abortions, who cannot deal with having killed their own offspring. Your views only consider the catastrophic effects, not ALL effects. Low birth weight subsequent deliveries, premature births, miscarriages, etc. often occur in women who have aborted.
Now, the mindset. I have watched women agonize about their abortion. Nightmares, medications, counseling, depression, commitment to institutions, dysfunction in social situations, and even suicide are common. This “liberty interest” you Pubbies seem to hold above life, is damaging more women than you have probably considered. They are told it is relatively low risk, and then they experience the “true” horror, of their choice.
They are convinced it is their right to do this, then they experience despair, anxiety and the other mental anguish abortione cause, in people with a conscience. Those of us who have seen this first hand, would be amused by your depiction of abortion as “less risky” than naturally birthing a child, if it weren’t such a sad occurrence. THe true to life fact is, that many women are ruined for life by this misconception of their “right”, to kill their baby.
But, rationalize it any way you need to, as I am sure this post has little meaning to someone who believes science rather than life experience.


#10

The grief is horrible, but would it be any more right to try and go through with a risky birth and risk the life of the baby and the mother, possibly losing both in the process? I feel for mothers that experience grief after these emergency abortions, but does anyone feel that risking the mother’s life would have been preferable?


#11

[quote=“Cam, post:7, topic:38836”]
As you know…I don’t share your views on abortion. Nevertheless…this guy is a Little Shop of Horrors…a truly evil and indifferent murderer… and his staff deserves jail time as well.

As an aside CT…your comments on the risks of abortion are grossly overstated and out of context. The fact is that delivering a baby carries 10 times more risk of serious complications to the mother than does a 2nd trimester abortion…and VASTLY more risk than a 1st trimester abortion which makes up over 85% of cases.
[/quote]My wife had an emergency abortion in the second trimester. We still counsel women who have had abortions, who cannot deal with having killed their own offspring. Your views only consider the catastrophic effects, not ALL effects. Low birth weight subsequent deliveries, premature births, miscarriages, etc. often occur in women who have aborted.
Now, the mindset. I have watched women agonize about their abortion. Nightmares, medications, counseling, depression, commitment to institutions, dysfunction in social situations, and even suicide are common. This “liberty interest” you Pubbies seem to hold above life, is damaging more women than you have probably considered. They are told it is relatively low risk, and then they experience the “true” horror, of their choice.
They are convinced it is their right to do this, then they experience despair, anxiety and the other mental anguish abortions cause, in people with a conscience. Those of us who have seen this first hand, would be amused by your depiction of abortion as “less risky” than naturally birthing a child, if it weren’t such a sad occurrence. The true to life fact is, that many women are ruined for life by this misconception of their “right”, to kill their baby.
But, rationalize it any way you need to, as I am sure this post has little meaning to someone who believes science rather than life experience.


#12

In 2010 in the US, there were 21 maternal deaths per 100,000(.0021%) pregnancies and 15.1 per 100,000(.0151%) in 2012. Not real risky, is it?
The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions(.0001%) at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000(.00345%) at 16-20 weeks-and one per 11,000(.0091%) at 21 or more weeks. Seems to be more risky, to me.
You cannot begin to fathom what goes on in the abortion industry.
But, you folks who only read about abortion really don’t have an inkling of the scope of the damage being caused. Those of us who have to deal with the “reality” of abortion, KNOW the truth of what you guys are denying. Abortion is neither humane, nor safe.
Now, what experience do you have to claim such a thing? Pure rhetoric is all you have. You have heard this, and reasoned it to be “practical”, but you have not seen what I have seen.


#13

From your source:

The latter numbers have decreased significantly over the past 10 years due to advancement in abortion surgical procedure techniques and the new medications used to terminate pregnancy.

At least be honest about your numbers.

The pregnancy-associated mortality rate in the United States from 1998-2005 among women who delivered live neonates was 8.8 deaths per 100,000 live births. The mortality rate related to induced abortion was 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions. The risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than that with abortion, and overall morbidity associated with childbirth exceeds that with abortion.

Further, illegal abortions make up more than a tenth of all maternal deaths as a result of abortion. When under proper medical care, yes, abortions are much more preferable than risking a mother’s life giving a risky birth.


#14

Cam, I got my statistics from “Feminists for Life”. I can’t speak to their accuracy, but I don’t think they’d lie or exaggerate. They are totally on the side of women. I’ll see if I can find their figures and post them for you. But as far as what happens to a woman’s body during an abortion, that is scientific/medical fact.


#15

I’m not gonna get into it again…I was commenting on the medical problems CT claimed and pointing out that live births had significantly more risk. And of course you are free to hold your own opinions on the matter and I have no problem with you trying to convince others that there are better choices. When that crosses the line to using government to tell others what they can and cannot do according to your morality…we part ways.


#16

Trekky0623;581155]

At least be honest about your numbers.

Where was I dishonest, liberal? I stated the figures. I showed that 21 per 100,000 in 2010, and then 15.1 deaths per 100,000(.0151%) in 2012. THAT is the stat. It does not matter one iota if the rates were going up, or down, but anyone who read it could deduce the numbers were going down. The fact is, there is a better chance you’ll die from cancer(.189%).

Further, illegal abortions make up more than a tenth of all maternal deaths as a result of abortion. When under proper medical care, yes, abortions are much more preferable than risking a mother’s life giving a risky birth.
First, it has been seen that the CDC has padded the stats. So, 90% occur through legal abortions? Well that should make moms feel better.:Thud:
Medical abortions make up 17% of all abortions. Your use of the term “risky” implies these are the abortions you are referring to. 83% of abortions are for convenience, and therefore are not associated with risky deliveries.
Still, I have EXPERIENCED what you are trying to inform me. It never ceases to amaze me, how some people think their reading trumps other peoples’ living.


#17

Ummm…the term MEDICAL ABORTIONS…refers to DRUG INDUCED abortion rather than SURGICAL D&E type abortions. They have NOTHING to do with either convenience or medical necessity. It is a reference to the METHOD used.
Try to keep up if you’re gonna be a statistician and make foolish claims based on data you haven’t bothered to understand.


#18

[quote=“Cam, post:15, topic:38836”]
I’m not gonna get into it again…I was commenting on the medical problems CT claimed and pointing out that live births had significantly more risk. And of course you are free to hold your own opinions on the matter and I have no problem with you trying to convince others that there are better choices. When that crosses the line to using government to tell others what they can and cannot do according to your morality…we part ways.
[/quote]My wife aborted that child, but when she became pregnant again, she refused to. Yes, medically, risky births are…well, risky.
But, I have ZERO issues with abortions for the sake of the Mother’s health. My wife had one. I would never begrudge anyone the choice to save the mother’s life.
But, abortion for convenience is HURTING Mothers, not as as much as the victims it destroys, but alot more than you realize. I am not talking about stats, that can be fudged, I am talking about real life women, destroyed mentally, and some physically, by this horrific process.
Now, you are obviously siding with those who claim some imaginary line where an unborn becomes a person with rights. Your view is one of stats and medical jargon.

I, as you know, believe that happens when the egg is implanted. So, my calling for abortion to be a crime, would be the same as you wanting any other form of murder, outlawed, from my perspective. Yes, my morality is not based on your scientific imaginary line, but from the real deal, A wife who, thirty odd years later, still agonizes and has nightmares. Additionally, I speak from the experiences of many who we’ve counseled. So, you will never be my friend, and that’s fine, but my morality is not the issue. The lives of those involved, is.

You are free to believe or and participate in whatever you choose. Just do not expect me to sit idly by, and remain silent while millions are slaughtered each year.


#19

Implantation is not when life begins. Life begins at the moment of conception–when one sperm enters the egg. Quite amazing process if you’ve ever studied it. At the moment the sperm enters the egg, the egg forms an impenetrable shield so no other sperm can enter. Conception occurs usually in the fallopian tubes. The fertilized egg (zygote) then travels through the fallopian tubes into the uterus where it implants onto the uterine wall. This process after conception takes about 3 days. Implantation is where people who push in-vitro fertilization make a terrible mistake. I’m not sure what drug-induced abortion is unless it refers to the “morning after pill” in which case it is still an abortion. The morning after pill does not remove an egg which has not been fertilized, it removes an already fertilized egg–if by that time it has been fertilized. An egg can become fertilized from between a few hours and three days after sexual intercourse has occurred. The whole process is miraculous. It is said, too, that humans are the least fertile of all the species on earth, and that it is a miracle that we even become pregnant! I don’t know how true that is, but that is what I read.


#20

First off, you displayed decreasing stats for the stats you wanted to, namely births, but not abortions. Secondly, the source that you get those stats from says this:

The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16-20 weeks, and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks. The latter numbers have decreased significantly over the past 10 years due to advancement in abortion surgical procedure techniques and the new medications used to terminate pregnancy.

So what are you saying? You just forgot to include the last part that says these states are not decreasing, but in fact have decreased? You’re not even being honest in your response to this.

And as CAM has stated, your stats aren’t even about surgical abortions, so they’re meaningless anyway. I** don’t deny your personal experience**, Tiny. I deny your statistics that you have purposefully selected to give a dishonest picture.

That said, abortions, surgical ones in the hospital, are less risky than birthing a child with sufficient complications. You haven’t refuted that; in fact you’ve tried to use phony stats to refute it and have failed. If the mother is in danger, the best course is to abort the pregnancy rather than risk her life.