Hopeful European


#1

Hello,

I’m from Austria (Europe, no kangaroos), liberal (at least, i guess in usa i would be called communist right away), strongly anti-conservative and mainly interested in worldwide politics. I’d like to discuss the views of the right wing about the world. How do conservatives explain the hatred f.e. of the muslim world against the west, if not through all the wars that happened on account of the usa and their european allies.
Why is everyone so shaken about actions like what happened in Paris (which is no doubt a tragedy), but if 150 muslims are killed in syria or iraq through western bomb not a single person cares. Why does the west negate its own supercruel history in that region (from french beheadings in Algeria - yes, its not only IS who does that - to holy wars from earlier ages) and is surprised, that noone really likes us there ?

Well that should be enough for the introduction. Tho i can’t vote, the most important topic of the coming election for me is (no big surprise) foreign policy. If i follow the TV discussions, almost all republican candidates want to start another war against terror, so I am really afraid that we will have an even bigger mess as we got after George Bush left office. Or do they have a plan apart from bombing everything to the ground and leaving a mess behind ? If yes I’d really like to hear about it!

Bob


#2

This should be fun.


#3

Good luck…I mean you Austrians. You will need it evidently.


#4

I am trying to figure out whether or not your positions are really that naive and uninformed or if you are just trolling.

I will try to answer your “questions” to the best of my ability. I believe one reason radical Islam despises the west is in part due to early colonialism and mostly cultural and religious differences. Their culture is vastly difference from that of the West and someone the things we allow are punishable by death over there.

Your second question is a simple one. In war civilian causalities are unavoidable. Of course we will be surprised when the enemy kill our(or our allies) civilians. Also you forget that the Crusades were a 2 sided coin.

Your naivety of world politics and affairs leads you to believe that we do not care. We do not like civilians causalities not more than the next but if they continue to let the enemy live and hide among them then such a thing is unavoidable.

For you time here I suggest you pack away what ever biased opinions you brought with you until get to know the story.

Oh and welcome to the site!


#5

This is only half the answer. Of course they despise us (Europeans especially) due too violent history in that region. I dont think the average muslim despises us because of our ideas of freedom and stuff. But they realize, at which cost this “freedom” (if it would ever be on the topic anyway) would come. And at least some of them know, that our economic model (which is the main root of all the problems we are facing today) of eternal growth and plundering ressources for our good is not going to work out well for them.
So the other half is of course the history of Iran vs Iraq (you remember that Hussein was our ally for quite a few years), or the (at least somehow justifyable) war of 1991. And then we have all the other conflicts in the middle east which were mainly started by western countries, esp. to gather resources or at least to be sure that these resources aren’t sold in a different currency as the us dollar.

I’d be interested what the other side of the coin of the crusades was. Do you mean what happened during Mohammeds reign or what happened after the crusades. By the way - funny detail: one of the last crusades was redirected by Venice to weaken their opponent of eastern med traderouse Constantinople - which they succeeded in. And like 50 years later the muslims conquered Constantinople and poured into Europe. Somehow reminds me of the situation of today (we destabilize the middle east so that the people have to flee to europe).
War always has many (in modern times 90% of) civilian casualties. Thats why war should be the last means and not the first, as we now can see again in Hollandes stupid bombing raids.

I will try my best. :slight_smile:


#6

There are several reasons why the Muslims hate the west. One, of course, is the fact that we’re not Muslims, and we’re resisting Islam. Has nothing to do with our “abuse” of them. Anything in the way of war they got from the West was brought on by their own attacks. And another reason they hate us is because we’re successful. We are creators and maintainers. They are users and destroyers.

When Jews started returning to Israel, and there were a few Muslims living there, the Muslims would sell the poorest of the land to the Jews at exorbitant prices. The Jews would proceed to build it up and make it better that what the Muslims kept for themselves, and the Muslims started complaining about the Jews “stealing” the best land.


#7

I never said the hate us because of our Freedom. That is a liberal talking point. Our culture differs from ours in extreme ways. For the religious nutcases it is a n excellent talking point as to why they should hate us “decadent” westerners. It is easy t stir up hate against someone whose culture is despicable by your own standards.

The Muslims did themselves no favors during the Crusades. Both sides were in the wrong.


#8

They might not hate us “because of our freedom” but the results of that freedom are that we tower over them economically, scientifically, militarily, just about in every way. That must drive them up the wall especially when the Koran teaches them it should be the other way around.


#9

Funny thing is that for hundreds of year they where the creators and maintainers, and europ was users and destroyers - and, after europe started to expand all over the world (ie destroyers), they (like the rest of the world) collapsed.

So I guess you support Israels politics of today, like building their homes in an occupied country and putting pressure on all arabs around them. And then being surprised, that these arabs are sending rockets back.

Thats what i meant with unterstanding both sides. I guess its not a conservative position trying to do that. Its easier to know where the one big enemy is, and not think of consequences of someones own doings (like dopping bombs, or destabilizing one country after the next as USA did in central and southern america in the 70s and 80s).


#10

We tower over them because we have the military means to support our economic view, not because our view is superior.

The koran is like the bible a book that should be kept in churches/mosques at best (better would be only in someones own four walls), and of course not in school or any public organisation, so that society doesnt get destabilized by religious radicals. Thats a problem that the muslim world still has to conquer, at least in europe we managed that step a long time ago.
Like modern christians there are many modern muslims (syria, which was one of the most modern in the muslim woröd, is just falling apart) who can distiguish from what old ideas are written in religious books and how society works today. Only radicals turn them in their own world.


#11

The Muslims were never creators and maintainers. The so-called golden age of Islam was when they took over what had already been created, and more or less enslaved the creators (who were also probably forced to be the maintainers).

As for Israel, that territory has been theirs for millenia. The Arabs (now calling themselves Palestinians) started filtering into the Israeli territory after the Jews started returning. It was mostly uninhabited wasteland until then.


#12

That’s just BS. They were “the sick man of Europe”. Europe actually had to prop up the decadent caliphate as a hedge against Russia. Their decadence is what brought them down.
You self-haters are the same all over the world.


#13

Well thats historically wrong. Medicine, science, mathematics - yes, all had its roots in greece, egypt etc - but they prolonged it, whil europeans were basically sitting on a tree or fighting each other over dead lands.

So I guess then I (as an Austrian) can reclaim Mexico for my country, as it belonged to us a few hundred years ago ? Someone always lived somewhere.


#14

They were the sick man of europe in the 19th Century, but not in the hundreds of years before that.
And yes, their decadence brought them down. Just like our decacende (we rule the world and know what its best for it) will bring us down, if we dont find another way to deal with each other than killing. The Romans learned it, the Spanish learned it, the British learned it and we will learn it as well.


#15

Yep, you were colonizers, too. You took Mexico. And probably lost it to Spain. No, that doesn’t give you the right to reclaim it. Maybe if it were abandoned, you could move into it, but it’s not. I suppose it would be foolish on my part to tell you how God gave Israel to Israel and his descendants, and how he drove the people out. Most of the people that were driven out of Israel - or destroyed - attacked first. And God promised them it would be theirs forever. But I’ll forego any more casting of pearls.

I’ll repeat - Israel was mostly uninhabited wasteland when the Jews started to return there.

Medicine, science and mathematics is not and never has been the province of Islam. You will find that most of the great scientific and medical discoveries can be attributed to Christians. Now, they do tell us that the Arabs gave us our numeric system; I won’t declare that absolutely, one way or another - but even that was before Islam existed.


#16

[QUOTE=Bobsterino]The koran is like the bible a book that should be kept in churches/mosques at best (better would be only in someones own four walls), and of course not in school or any public organisation, so that society doesnt get destabilized by religious radicals. Thats a problem that the muslim world still has to conquer, at least in europe we managed that step a long time ago.
Like modern christians there are many modern muslims (syria, which was one of the most modern in the muslim woröd, is just falling apart) who can distiguish from what old ideas are written in religious books and how society works today. Only radicals turn them in their own world. [/QUOTE]
I missed this part of your post. A person’s religion is not something that should be hid away. In fact, both the Koran and the Bible tell their followers what to do. The Koran tells them to “kill the infidel wherever you find him.” And the Bible says, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel (good news) to every creature.”

As for the Bible belonging only in churches - when our country was young, the Bible was the textbook for the schools. And the churches ran the schools. One of the first acts of our fledgling government was to print 2,000 Bibles, to make sure there was a Bible in every home. And it’s since the Bible has been taken out of our schools that things have been going down hill at an accelerated rate in our country.

Literacy has come from and been handed down by Christians - not by Muslims nor Atheists. Christians sought to give people the opportunity to learn for themselves, not to be forced to believe whatever those in power wanted to feed them.


#17

It was obvious he was trolling and his lack of knowing any real history about the world showed.


#18

He was “Hopeless.”


#19

…and the most historically ignorant person ever to post here, apparently…even of his OWN history. “Sharia doesn’t exist anywhere in Europe?” He must not know about the Islamic enclaves in neighboring Germany or France that are “no-go” zones for the police. Funny how WE know about them, but this guy doesn’t and he lives AMONG them.


#20

This guy brought to mind some scenes from Life of Brian:

The People’s Front of Judea, composed of the Pythons’ characters, harangue their “rivals” with cries of “splitters” and stand vehemently opposed to the Judean People’s Front, the Judean Popular People’s Front, the Campaign for a Free Galilee, and the Popular Front of Judea (the last composed of a single old man, mocking the size of real revolutionary Trotskyist factions). The infighting among revolutionary organisations is demonstrated most dramatically when the PFJ attempts to kidnap Pontius Pilate’s wife, but encounters agents of the Campaign for a Free Galilee, and the two factions begin a violent brawl over which of them conceived of the plan first. When Brian exhorts them to cease their fighting to struggle “against the common enemy,” the revolutionaries stop and cry in unison, “the Judean People’s Front!” However, they soon resume their fighting and, with two Roman legionnaires watching bemusedly, continue until Brian is left the only survivor, at which point he is captured.