I don't know what to do

So at my job I work in an area in close proximity to a guy I’ll classify as a friend.

He’s a total liberal. He always makes jokes about white people (even though he is white). He makes fun of Texans. He hates conservatives. He got the covid vaccine free at my job the moment it was available. He drives a car closely associated with libs. I have never once hinted at my political inclinations around this guy; he would have me lynched if I ever said I didn’t hate Trump.

Tonight somehow we got on the topic of the coof vax, and I stated that I didn’t want to get it. He immediately asked me why in the hell I haven’t gotten it yet. I have reasons, top of which is the last time I got vaccinated I ended up in the hospital. Then he tells me he won’t get near anyone who hasn’t been vaccinated with the coof vax. I state that covid has like a .0001% death rate, he says it’s 95% and he also says he has worked in the medical profession and his mom is a nurse so he knows.

So I ask why would you get vaccinated if you can’t/won’t be around anyone who hasn’t been vaccinated? Why get vaccinated at all? Then he says the vaccine is only 25% effective, and he has a wife and kids. I ask why again, get vaccinated if it’s not effective? Then… then, no joke, he says the vaccine is 99% effective… if you’re around other people who got vaccinated?

The conversation ended with him telling me I’m selfish and I’m basically murdering everyone around me by not getting the vax. I had never considered this before. It went from a personal choice, to my decisions meaning life and death to everyone but me. I also said I don’t want to take any experimental vaccines, I’d rather wait a few years until they iron out the kinks. He then tells me that the covid vax doesn’t actually have covid in it, and I’m committing homicide.

I have so many questions. How can you make a vaccine that doesn’t have the actual virus in it? How can a vaccine go from a 25% success rate when used on someone else, to a 99% success rate when used on myself? How come a month ago before the vaccine was available he had no problems being around everyone but now he won’t go near anyone who hasn’t taken it? I’ve never considered the fact that by me not wanting to take this vaccine I was in fact willfully killing people; I don’t want anyone to die because of me, should I just take the vax for altruistic purposes even though I don’t feel comfortable doing it? How can I ever talk to this guy again, let alone work with him? I think he’s batsh-t crazy.

I really don’t know how to handle this situation now. I’ll listen to advice from anyone.

New type, but the technology has been around since the 90’s. Your cells translate RNA into proteins, and proteins make up sub-structures of viruses. The way covid infects you is with a spike protein that attaches to your cells.

The vaccines (most of the ones approved) are composed of RNA that can enter your cells without much aid. Once inside, your normal cells read it like they do any other RNA and start to manufacture these spike proteins. Your immune cells see this spike protein and attack it, then gain a memory for how to stop invaders with that protein.

Luckily, this spike protein is integral to coronavidae as we know them, so variants conserve the structure.

It’s a real cool technology that’s already leading to work on a 1 time (or at least not yearly) flu shot, as well as some HIV and cancer vaccines.

If I understand right, it has to do with herd immunity type stuff. Vaccinated people can still pass it, though not as efficiently as unvaccinated people. There’s a lag time between your body being infected and the immune cells reacting to it’s presence. So vaccinated people aren’t shedding virus as heavily on average, but they’re still capable. However, when the relatively small amount of virus they shed reaches a vaccinated person, the vaccinated person’s immune system has a headstart in fighting it off.

Probably a psychology issue, when there’s no way to fight it people tend to make do. Now that we’ve been given a way to defend ourselves, it may be more pressing in his mind.

Yes, probably. This was a big part of the fight against anti-maskers. You’re not doing it for yourself, you’re doing it to protect the vulnerable ones in your community. However, I think you should discuss your concerns about the vaccine with a trusted doctor, they may be able to alleviate some of that. Meaning, I don’t think you should get it if you are unconformable, but I think you should seek education from a trusted medical practitioner to see if your discomfort can be mitigated.

He sounds a bit extreme, but this is probably a question for HR. Good luck!

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We’re not talking and it’s an awkward night

My $0.02 - your co-worker is on a mission to find things to be outraged and offended towards. People like that, you can’t change their minds. Having said that, neither one of you have accurate opinions about Covid or vaccines.

Firstly, the mortality rate is not 0.001% or 99%. It’s around 1-2% depending on the strain, climate conditions and a couple of other factors. This isn’t just the CDC, but the CSIRO and the NHS determining these findings independently after peer review. That’s not the big issue with Covid, however. The big issue is what the long term effects of surviving Covid is and they accurate answer is no one knows. The general consensus is long term respiratory complications for the rest of your life (but that is still only an educated estimate), but there are some indications of side affects as severe as permanent erectile dysfunction. And it goes without saying the side affects are exacerbated by age, diet and pre-existing conditions. So there is that to consider.

As for the “herd immunity” expression, the premise of this is to deny a disease a foothold in a community, Some people have deficient immune systems, so for them taking a vaccine would place at greater risk. So the onus is on relatively healthy people to be vaccinated to protect weaker members of society. If you want an example in the US, in 2017 it was discovered that parents in Hennepin County, Minnesota stopped vaccinating their kids for measles and as a result, the total number of measles cases in Hennepin County was larger than the rest of the US combined. Your co-worker is being a moron accusing you of murder, but if you’re healthy and are still refusing to take the vaccine, how are you not putting people around you at risk? Most strains of Covid are pretty pervasive as well, lasting on hard surfaces for up to 72 hours incidentally.

Basically, I think you are highlighting two issues here. Your reservations about the vaccine and your charming co-worker. With regards to the vaccine, Gene hit the nail on the head - talk to your doctor and be upfront about your reservations. Speaking for myself, I’m getting the vaccine the second my age bracket comes up as I regularly have to check on my parents and both are over 70; the high risk age for exposure.
With regards to your co-worker, if he’s that much of a crusader you’re never going to change his mind. And yet I can say I have never seen anyone who has the stamina to be perpetually outraged over something. Sure, you’re in for some awkward days but I am almost certain he will either find something else to rage against or simply run out of steam…

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My final thoughts are… why the hell get vaccinated if it literally won’t do anything for you unless you’re only surrounded by other people who are vaccinated? I thought the purpose of getting vaccinated was so you could enjoy some semblance of a normal life?

I thought libs were down for the whole my body my choice thing. This is some hypocritical bullsh—. This entire covid thing has turned into a cult. It’s a religion complete with beliefs, faith and rituals. It even has animosity towards anyone of a different faith than you.

Except they have turned it into “anyone who isn’t a member wants to kill everyone else.” I even said I’d rather wait a few years until they iron out the kinks in the vaccine before I take it. I’m not going to put some new coof juice into my veins when they’re not even sure what the long term repercussions are. I’m not trying to kill my fellow man with my covid dripping death bringing existence.

If I felt even a tad bit sick I’d stay home and not go anywhere. I’m not out to kill people. I don’t know. I respect all of you guy’s opinions. Please don’t judge me. Unless I actually got the covid, I’m not preoccupied with living my life based on its precepts. I’d just rather wait for vaccine#5 than #0 if that makes sense. In the mean time, if someone doesn’t want to inject themselves with some experimental liquid that may save them from like a 1% chance of death I don’t care. I think you probably have a higher chance of dying in a car accident. Or getting shot by Trump supporters.

(This is with the odds of getting the coof… ? What are the odds? And the odds of actually dying from it if you got it. And you’re not super old and dying already)

Put those together. Like … I think the odds of covid death are really slim. IMO

Slim enough that it shouldn’t preoccupy your life and your judgments of others.

The Democrats want this crisis to last as long as possible because it gives them power. Biden might even be moving the untested illegals into the heart of the country to keep the pandemic going. I would not put it past him. The man has no integrity and no decency.

I have gotten the vaccine and would urge all others to get it. If anything it will increase you chances of survival. So far as quality of life goes, the Democrats don’t care. They only want power. Once HR-1 passes, elections will mean nothing. The Democrats will be in complete control. The Republicans will be unable to win any important election.

Not sure where you got that interpretation from what was said. I think you are confusing what Patooka said. I believe he was referring to people who get the vaccine to make it safer for those who do not if the people who do not are sufficiently isolated from each other in a sea of people who are vaccinated.

You have a choice, but you have to live with the consequences of that choice. Others around you also have choices and they may choose to exclude you from certain things if you choose not to be vaccinated or they may simply pass judgement on your decision not to to.

Now in fairness we live in a grossly over politicized era in which choices are often equated to politics and ideology.

I think it has a lot to do with what you are being asked to endure vs the consequences for not doing so.

Your decision not to get vaccinated by itself probably isn’t all that significant, but if enough people feel as you do, that changes the dynamic and could potentially result in the deaths of others. Hence the cultural backlash from those around you.

Let’s be fair, you’re basing that opinion on one person. I understand your reservations. Really I do. When I heard they were rushing to make the vaccine, I can’t say that I felt completely ok with it. But I have a friend who works at Ft. Detrick in MD who works in virology and he explained to me that he felt completely safe taking the vaccine and explained why, I felt much better about it.

I don’t believe you are. Sounds a bit hyperbolic to me.

And there lies the rub. With COVID you can be contagious for days and maybe even a week before to know you’re sick.

That said, in an unvaccinated population that’s not doing anything to try to avoid the virus, the spread rate is 3, which means that every person that gets it will give it to three others.

In any pandemic the trick is to bring that number under 1. When the number drops under 1 cases subside.

The last thing I should point out is that there is the chance that future variants of COVID either become more infectious, for example, if COVID was as infectious as measles, every person that got COVID in population not taking steps to mitigate it would be 15. There is also the change that the death rate could go from around 1 (give or take) to something much higher or it could become more deadly (or both).

The way to prevent that is to prevent the spread of COVID which in turn reduces the number of generations of the virus and the sheer number of infections.

So the rub here is that your decision not to take the vaccine in a vacuum isn’t that big a deal. There have been lots of people in the past that have declined vaccines for various reasons. I think this time is a little different because of the number of people that are refusing and the underlying reasons for doing so.

-Cheers

Send has me blocked, whatever, what I can’t understand is how this guy went so far off the rails. Before Trump I thought Send was a pretty together. I mean he had his bias’ (but who doesn’t), but he’s really sliding off the rails and needs help from people he trusts.

I hope he get’s it.

Thanks for the advice.

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I do believe that - to an extent. However, “My body my choice” doesn’t justify drinking a bottle of rum and then driving past the local primary school at 3pm every Mon-Fri, for example. And there is a reason why things like polio and measles are making a resurgence nowadays when they weren’t an issue when my parents were growing up. Much the same way the expression “Freedom of Speech”, doesn’t give me carte blanche to post whatever I damn well like on this forum. Doesn’t make me a hypocrite. The hard and fast rule I suppose is your rights ends when it puts other people at risk. I guess the arguments revolve around what everyone interprets as “others at risk”.

Believe that if you want. I’ll just point out the week Trump tested positive for Covid, there were more reported cases of Covid in the Whitehouse alone than Vietnam, Taiwan and New Zealand combined. And due to Trump’s repeated failures of not flattening the curve (a feat achieved by most developed countries and third world countries), it will cost the US approximately $16 trillion by some estimates. The “cult mentality” is from people who were anti-mask, didn’t social distance and were reluctant to wash their hands because they didn’t like what the people who have spent forty years of their lives working on such things said. Just ask Trump’s biggest supporter Herman Cain if you don’t believe me…

Perfect sense. I’d also point out that every pharmaceutical company knows how much publicity is involved in this and are very much aware that if they field a flawed vaccine they will be crucified; quite possibly literally. You know, by cultists.

This is an attitude I understand and sympathise, and yet I think it comes from the fact that we live in the age of television and video games, where medicine is always presented as absolute. It’s not. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve seen people lose their crap over the possible side affects of medication prescribed by their doctor. And I have yet to hear of a single “experimental” vaccine being released to the general public.

I agree 100% I would also add you are more likely to be beaten to death by the antifa thugs who were on that plane ready to storm the RNC. However, I plan to live until I’m 120, then get gored by a feral pig I was hunting, I don’t plan to have respiratory problems from now until then simply because I didn’t want to get the jab. And it bears repeating; it’s not dying from Covid that’s the issue it’s the long term affects that come from surviving it. And even if you are A-OK, you know, you just know you’re going to get screwed on your medical premiums and I am very much in favour of not giving those bastards one cent more than is necessary.

I think what nobody understands is that I’m capable of knowing if I’m sick. And if I’m sick I’ll stay home. I’m not going to willfully put anyone’s life at risk. I also don’t feel comfortable taking some experimental DNA altering “The Boys” type serum. :grimacing:

But… okay even if I’m sick I may not know it. And I could infect thousands with my death virus without even knowing. And even if I get the vaccine I can still get the coof because it’s not 100% effective. So even with the vax I can still kill thousands of people.

The only solution for the world is for every last man woman and child to stay home until they’re all dead. I think it’s 100% impossible to safe guard everyone’s life against any sort of bad things. And bad things will happen. As much as big brother wants to shield us from any potential heart ache I think bad things are going to happen.

The last time I got vaccinated my body took almost two months to recover and it was hell. Not looking forward to going through that again.

they are also aware that the left wing media will take GREAT pains to hide ANYTHING and EVERYTHING negative regarding this.

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I truly hope you’re wrong but I truly fear you’re right. -.-

You know what’s ironic? These illegals you are worried about all come from countries that responded to Covid far better than Trump. So arguably, you are safer around illegals than US citizens as they would have less chance of being exposed.

Biden has placed the illegals ahead of all U.S. citizens. They get free health care, free money as non-citizens, no court dates in spite of the fact that they broken the law and they don’t need to be tested or prove that they have taken the vaccine. The Biden administration is pushing for citizens to get vaccine passports, which will benefit the tech industry which supports him.

The World Health Organization says that a 5% positive rate for testing is the goal. The illegals, that have been tested, have been 10% positive, twice the goal. Yet Biden is flying and busing them around America.

Nothing in this screed is even remotely true.

Where did you hear this? Definitely talk to your doctor about these concerns, it won’t alter your DNA.

I like the reference though! Just finished watching the first 2 seasons.

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You don’t follow the news, do you? Of course since you are an Australian citizen, you probably can’t follow American news except when it fits your narrative.

The reason that I blocked you is that you are not an American citizen. Yet you think that you can dictate to us what our government can do to us.

I would never tell you what your government should impose upon you. It’s your country and your government, not mine. Why do you think you are qualified to tell me how to live?

I follow your news closer than you’d think. Considering the only Australian Tucker Carlson references is Miranda Devine and the only US “Journalist”, referenced on SKY News is Tucker Carlson, you cannot fully appreciate how incestuous your media is with Australian Media. You might want to google Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch in your spare time.

Block me for whatever reason you like. I’m serious. I’m powerless to stop you. I will also point out I have never dictated anything on this forum. I have offered criticism, that is completely true. What is also true is that whilst I have to pay taxes to your country, I am not comfortable having a legitimate say on how it is run because I am not a citizen. Let me provide an absurd counterpoint; none of the forum members here live in North Korea, right? Does that mean none of us can criticize the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea? I hope not, because I think even their name is a joke. And just so we are absolutely clear; America, even an America lead by Trump is a billion times better than nations like China, Syria or Russia. And I feel I can provide that opinion despite not being a citizen of the US, China, Russia or Syria. Hell, throw the Philippines, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Turkey and Brazil onto the list. Being better than does not equal immunity for scrutiny and speculation.

Say what you like about my country. If we think it’s good advice, we’ll take it. I hope as a nation we would thank you after it. If you think you are going to offend me by being critical of our government…well. A lot of Australians want to throw the current Prime Minister into a volcano because of how he handled the bushfires in 2019. It doesn’t matter who’s in charge, we hate them. It seems only fair that you can join in and hate them too. Go nuts. I’ll give you a head start - the last two left leaning Prime Ministers we had were Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd. Say whatever you like about them and I would agree. The two prominent left leaning leaders at the moment are “Dictator” Dan Andrews and “God Emperor” Mark McGowan. They are both very flawed individuals climaxing on their own hubris (in my opinion) so if you have something to take them down a peg, I would be very much obliged.

Thanks, mate.