In Mathew 16:24, and Luke 9:23 seems to emply the opposite of prosparity...


#1

When Christ says: take up your cross and follow me (Mathew16:24, and Luke 9:23), that is a challenge, that if we as Americans really tookthis seriously we would lose our identity.
When you read the Sermon on the Mount (Mathew chapter 6) “youcannot serve both God and mammon, you can’t serve two masters, you will lovethe one and despise the other or you will accept the one and reject the other.”etc…

So it appears that Jesus runs counter with prosperity doctrine. Thesescriptures are unsettling because I don’t see anywhere where I could justify myfancy house or my luxury car. The closer I walk with Christ the less materialwealth and prosperity I will have. If I keep money I am hording it. In the end,it appears that in order for one to get closest with Christ we should all becomemonks. I don’t mean to imply only monks are saved but rather, having the closestrelationship with Christ while here on earth. It was just something I thought interesting when i was reading lastnight.

Take that to the next level; in observing our American culture of wealth acquisition,perhaps Americans has simply turned their back on God altogether and given intoour material basest desires giving unwarrantedly, God the credit.
Just a thought.


#2

The Lord Jesus commanded His apostles (and us through them) to convert the world to Christianity through the preaching of the gospel, and the preaching of the gospel worldwide takes a huge amount of money.

Here is Jesus’ Great Commision to His Church:
“Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” Matthew 28:18-19

If a Christian believer does not have any money then he cannot give any money to support the above Great Commision. Poor Christians do not have the financial means to “go and make disciples of all nations.”

How much do you think one Bible costs?

The Gideons International distributes 2 Bibles every second throughout the world. How many seconds in one year? In ten years?

How much money do you think it costs to print and then distribute hundreds of millions of Bibles around the world? Is that worth doing?

Who do you think pays for getting that done? Do you think the Hollywood crowd supports the Gideons International? Or do you think it is we Christians who have money and that gives our money to the Gideons?

Do you think we Christians could give money that we not have to the Gideons? Of course you don’t. Therefore? Therefore we Christians have to have money so that we can give our money to the Gideons who pay for the paper, ink, labor, printing, shipping, and placing costs so they can distribute 2 Bibles every second somewhere in the world.

The Gideons have countless testimonies of large numbers of people that became Christians in lonely hotel/motel rooms because they picked up a Bible placed by the Gideons and read it.

"Gideons International is an evangelical Christian organization dedicated to distributing copies of the Bible in over 94 languages and 194 countries of the world, most famously in hotel and motel rooms. The organization was founded in 1899 in Janesville, Wisconsin, as an early American organization dedicated to Christian evangelism. It began distributing free Bibles, the work for which it is chiefly known, in 1908, when the first Bibles were placed in the rooms of the Superior Hotel in Superior, Montana.

Nearly 79 million Gideon Scriptures were given out in 2011. ** More than 1.7 billion have been distributed since 1908. ** On average, more** than two copies of the Bible are distributed per second **through Gideons International.[1] Gideons International is headquartered in Nashville, Tennessee, USA."

Gideons International - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you think the Hollywood crowd or the New York Times and the millions like them in America will give their money to have new Christian Churches built in far away lands, or do you think only Christians will give their money to pay for having those new churches built?

I am sure you agree that if Christians did not have money then they could not give money to have those new churches built and that means the churches would not get built.

Btw, the above is just the tip of the iceberg with regards to the amount of money needed to fund the expansion of Christianity worldwide. Therefore I love money and I am proud that I love money (because of what it can make possible IE the gospel preached worldwide) and I want all the honest earned money I can get my hands on.

I Love Money - Member Blogs - Conservative Republican Discussion Forums


#3

I provide money on occasion to the American Bible Society - but I always specify for China, because that is where the Lord has laid it on my heart. There is an operation in China - apparently government sanctioned, I suppose all their Bibles have the little red seal on them - that prints Bibles. $1 buys enough paper for one Bible. They can’t make them fast enough to get to all the people who want Bibles. I think China is a tiny bit looser on their restrictions right now, although it may just be a local thing (although the Bible printing has to be government sanctioned, I think). I read somewhere that in the outlying areas of China where opium has been a big problem, the local governments (specifically, the police) are turning a blind eye to the “illegal” house churches, because they have found that the more Christians there are in the community, the easier their job is.


#4

Remember that it was penniless monks who spread Christianity to Eastern and Western Europe in the first 900 years of Christianity. It was pennyless monks who brought christianty to Alaska (where the oldiest christian church can be found. Yes money does help but history has proven that it is not necessary. The apostles and Christ himself were pennyless.

It kind of makes me stop and think a little bit.


#5

Luke 16:10

New International Version (NIV)

10 “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.

So the government, “is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much”. Therefore, the government cannot be trusted with our money and property.

.


#6

/grin I will disagree with that and say that a penniless monk never spread a single word of Christianity at any time anywhere in the world.

Those penniless monks may have not personally owned anything, but they ate the food and wore the clothes that somebody else worked and paid for with MONEY and therefore they were at all times either consuming or wearing $$-value that could have been translated into MONEY. (living off other people’s blood sweat and tears, just not their own blood sweat and tears)

Then there is the matter of shelter, you mentioned Eastern and Western Europe, and Alaska. I note that human beings cannot survive in those parts of the world year round without shelter from the cold and rain. That means those “penniless monks” had the use of more $$-value that could be translated into the money that some other human beings worked and earned the MONEY to pay for.

The above makes a vital point: Christianity has NEVER advanced anywhere in the world apart from MONEY (that is, value eg. barter that could be translated into MONEY.)

History has demonstrated that huge amounts of money is absolutely essential if one wants to do what the Lord Jesus commanded His church to do … and do it on a 21st century world-wide scale. The Christian Church has multi-million dollar television and radio ministries that beam the gospel worldwide 24/7/365. A penniless monk can have no economic part in that.

Penniless traveling monks and their kind have zero part in placing hundreds of millions of Bibles all over the world. They also have zero part in building, maintaining, and growing churches here in America and worldwide.

They and their poor-kind do not build, maintain, and grow Church Missions Departments and bear the economic cost of sending missionaries and their families around the world to preach the gospel. Who pays? Answer: Christian business men who work hard and earn honest money.

** (Btw, being a penniless or poor Christian when you have the ability to work and earn money is something to be ashamed of, not something to be proud of. ** See the Apostle Paul in 2 Thess 3:6-14
I will put that passage in a footnote at the very bottom labeled ** 2 Thess 3:6-14 **)


Within in 75 miles of my house there are dozens of Christian Churches with infrastructure that cost well over 3 million dollars and these churches have annual budgets of several million dollars each. They fund the work of the Church in the world, they feed the poor, they support the Gideons, they support the huge growing underground church in China, they support World Missions, they support the Salvation Army, they support Bible Colleges and Christian Universities. They support the building of new churches and in general they fund what the Lord Christ told His church to do in Mt. 28 namely “Go into all the world and preach the gospel.”

It takes Christian business men who earn honest money to pay for all that and actually get all that done. Penniless monks and all other Christians with no money do not have any part in the economic funding of the growth of God’s Church.

(Btw, the Sovereign God has given different Christian men different gifts and abilities. Some Christian men can honestly earn $10,000,000 per year, while other Christian men have only the ability to honestly earn $25,000 per year.

All are equally important in the up-ward mobile postive constructive worldwide Christianizing of the world. Using the 10% principle the man honestly earning 10 mil per year can give $1,000,000 dollars to the advancement of worldwide Christendom.

The men earning much less each year will give less to God’s church, but his kind is the vast majority and they are quite numerous worldwide and they collectively give billions of dollars every month to God’s Church to fund it forward throughout the world.

The more honest-earned money a Christian makes the larger dollar amount his 10% becomes to fund the growth of the church worldwide. The thousands of Christian missionaries around the world and their families have to eat, and their children have to have clothes and shoes to wear, and medical attention. Who is going to pay for all that? The Donald? Oprah?

The days of penniless monks traveling around preaching the gospel are long gone. This it the modern 21st century and men in far away lands are now hearing the message of John 3:16 on $100.00 cell phones (with $600.00 annual fees) as their friends and family here in America and elsewhere talk to them courtesty of U.S.Celluar.

This is totally incorrect. The Lord Christ was a $$ paid carpenter who worked for His living, the Apostle Paul was a tentmaker $$, the Apostle Peter was a fisherman $$, Matthew was a tax collector $$ (the non-apostle Luke who wrote Luke and The Acts was a medical doctor $$).

The Apostle Paul made a point of preaching sermons in support of working to earn MONEY and said on one occasion if you refuse to work for money then you don’t get to eat the food bought by other Christians who did work for money to buy the food.


More importantly, in Col. 2:20-23, the Apostle Paul argued against the principle behind all forms of ** asceticism. **

Start quote: "20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.

23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." End quote.

The Apostle Paul specifically said that the principle of “harsh treatment of the body” (which would include giving up money and what money buys) lacked any spiritual value…

… then went on to heap high praise on the exact opposite of ** asceticism. ** (See the footnote just below)

:santa:


Here is the promised footnote:
** 2 Thess 3:6-14 **
Warning Against Idleness ** (or refusing to work for money) **

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us.

7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example.We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.

9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate.

10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies.

12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat.

13 And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.

14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.


#7

Susanna,

Thats very interesting and heart-warming too. Money well invested, me thinks. (China will one day be a Christian nation.)

Btw, the Gideons come to our church at least once per year and we are always glad to see them come.

:santa:


#8

I ment it as a reflection but…ill bite look up the following:

Matthew 10:9 Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;

Matthew 10:10 take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

Mark 6:9 Wear sandals but not an extra tunic.

Luke 9:3 He told them: "Take nothing for the journey–no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic.

Luke 10:4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

Luke 22:35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered.

So yes the Lord commanded them to be pennyless that God would provide and he did through those that heard and believed.


#9

If you did a exegetical study of the Epistle you would find within context that there were people taking advantage of the alms given to the poor and they were telling those who were lazy and just taking hand outs to get back to work for the alms were intended for those truly in need: travelers, elderly and the poor unable to work.

Also the apostles left their occupations and became traveling evangelists planting chruches and spreading the word. They lived off the charity of others and the various churches they visited. They were faithful to Christs command to go pennyless and in faith trust that God would provide all there needs.

Matthew 10:9 Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;

Matthew 10:10 take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

Mark 6:9 Wear sandals but not an extra tunic.

Luke 9:3 He told them: "Take nothing for the journey–no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic.

Luke 10:4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

Luke 22:35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered.

As to the millions of dollars put into mega churches, most of those churches walk a thin line between building a cathederal to the glory of God as a expression of love the local christian community has for God. And simply running a lucrative religous intertainment business that is based more on the cult of a individual then on the focus of Christ.

I honestly wrestle with the concept a the wealthy Christian. Many would consider me wealthy to a certain extent. its not as easy a question to answer as we kid ourselves into thinking. I think a excess of money tempts one to pride and a false since of self reliance appart from God, in this excessive money can be a curse and form a slavery (golden cage) that could very well lead one away from God into a false since of security and self reliance.

As to bibles having to be passed out to everyone I think that is ok and necissary but no greater witness is there then a person living a Christ like example through sacrifie of their time and money to those in need. I volunteer for habitat-for-humanity and have had many opportunites to witness.


#10

In Matthew chapter 6, we have this statement:

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

** This was written to those who loved money. It was not written to those to use money. **

We are to love people and use money, we are not to love money and use people.

I have read accounts of rich Christian businessmen who owned factories and employed several dozen employees and they were extreamely generous with their employess in salaries and benefits. Employers who are poor cannot do this.

Moreover, they established large trust funds worth millions of dollars to support Christian causes, trust funds that would endure long after they were dead and gone from this earth.

Bob Jones University is an example of a Christian University that has been ultra-funded by such Christian business men.

Bob Jones University is state of the art, I mean they are so well funded and so exceptional in their academic quality and graduate performance, that they sneer at state acreditation, and de facto reply, “You don’t accredit us, we accredit you.”


Back to Matthew 6

In the opening verses of that chapter Matthew says:

“2 ** “So when you give to the needy,** do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”

A Christian man with no money cannot give money to the needy.

A Christian man with little money cannot give a lot of money to the needy.

A Christian man with a lot of money can give a lot of money to a lot of needy people.

The text in Matthew said God “will reward you” if you give money to the needy the way that God said for you to do it.

** So God must think its a good thing for His people to have money to give to the needy, yes?

He actually rewards them for doing that, so it must be a good thing to do.

But you’d have to first have MONEY before you could do that which God will reward you for doing, yes? **


Matthew 6:19 says:

**

v.19 “Do not store up for yourselves** treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.”

** If you do not store money up for yourself, then you have NOT violated this verse. **

The New Testament teaches that God’s people are to put money to use, and not to store it up.

Huge numbers of wealthy Christian business men do put their large money fortunes to use. They observe the New Testament’s law of use that teaches we Christians are to use not only our gifts and abilities and our time and energy, but also our money in the service of the growth and expansion of God’s Church.

Also large numbers of wealthy Christians, when they die, leave their large estates ($$$$$) to Christian Bible colleges and Christian Universities and sometimes to their Churches. If they are quite wealthy, they may leave several million to their Christian children, and the rest to a Christian Bible College as a trust fund to pay the tutition of poorer but worthy aspiring young student pastors.

Their surviving Christian children can then take their inheritance and make it grow and then later in life repeat the example of their parants.

Doing such as that up there has nothing to do with what Jesus said in Mt. 6:19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth" They’re NOT doing that, instead they are putting it to use for the glory of God.


Also note the context of Mt. chapter 6

Note that it was written to people who were worrying about money or to people to get them to not start worrying about money:

“6:25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?”

therefore …

… you have to interpret:

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

in the context of this:

“6:25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?”

Or put another way, this:

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

Has nothing … NOTHING … to say about how God funds the growth and advancement of His Church in the world by blessing His Christian men with a lot of money.

:santa:


#11

No exegetical study will remove the fact that the Apostle Paul destroyed the principle behind all forms of asceticism in Col. 2:20-23, that is, the principle of the “harsh treatment of the body” having zero spiritual value, that is, eg. denying yourself money and “going monk” has zero spiritual value.

Exactly! And my point stands that Christendom has never advanced a single inch anywhere anytime apart from MONEY.

The New Testament’s theological sysyem and 21st century Christian Philosophy TRUMPS and totally OUTWEIGHS any interpretation of the above that has the Lord Christ teaching His 21st century church that we are susposed to “go penniless” as we carry out His Great Commission. That interpretation would be totally absurd and utterly ridiculous and also totally unworkable here in the 21st century. It would be a sin too, a sin because that interpretation is absurd, and a sin because it is a flat out refusal to use what the Sovereign God has provided for you to use here in this time in order to advance His church in the world.

Again, same thing:

The New Testament’s theological sysyem and 21st century Christian Philosophy TRUMPS and totally OUTWEIGHS any interpretation of the above that has the Lord Christ teaching His 21st century church that we are susposed to “go penniless” as we carry out His Great Commission.

That interpretation would be totally absurd and utterly ridiculous and also totally unworkable here in the 21st century.

It would be a sin too, a sin because that interpretation is absurd, and a sin because it is a flat out refusal to use what the Sovereign God has provided for you to use here in this time in order to advance His church in the world.

**Edit: Without a Theological System that TRUMPS and OUTWEIGHS unusual interpretations of issolated Biblical texts and clusters of texts, one will end up in the cults. When the Jehovah’s Wittnesses come to your door they have endless Biblical texts to present to you. So does every other cult in the world. They ALL have their verses lined up, just like you have yours lined up, up there. Verses that have led you into strange weeds that are not consistent with common sense, and not consistent with the Bigger Picture of the New Testament and the Bigger Picture of Christianity.

Holding a Theological SYSTEM that TRUMPS and OUTWEIGHS unusual interpretations of issolated Biblical texts and clusters of Biblical texts is what will save you from the cults and from reaching nutty conclusions.
**

I say to you in friendly tones :smile: that your mega-church complaint is a strawman.

The vast overwhelming majority of Christendom advances totally apart from the well-known so-called mega-churches which can be named on the fingers of one hand, two hands at the most. There is the Rick Warren thing, and then Joel Osteen’s Lakeside thing or Lakeview or whatever, then the Robert Schuller thing, and a few more.

Bet you can’t name 7 mega-churches in the whole world of over 2,000,000,000 Christians.

My point? Non-mega-church non-cult personality churches with their billions of dollars $$$$$$ fund the growth and expansion of Christendom here in 21st century America and worldwide.

Wrestle no longer. Thank God for the money He has given you and go work hard to get as much more-money as you can honestly earn, then put it to use to advance and grow God’s church in the world.

You worry about the wrong stuff, imo. Put your money to use. The Bible says specifically that we live under a “Give-Get-Give” system.

God gives you money, you give a portion of that money back to His Church, in turn you get more money and this cycle continues until death:

“Give and you will get, pressed down and running over, for with the measure you use it will be measured back to you” (thats a paraphrase from memory, but its pretty close to what Jesus said exactly)

All that is super good in my opinion, but that cannot be a substitute for the huge effort of worldwide Christendom to fund with MONEY the massive mega-trillion dollar $$$$$$$ effort to Christianize the whole world, which involves building Christian churches and Christian hospitals and Christian schools and Christian colleges and Christian universities and Christian half-way houses and Christian Missions Departments, etc.

Here is that verse I just paraphrased, its in Luke 6:38

"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

:santa:


#12

I think you’re incorrectly politicizing a teaching having to do with private virtue. Christ isn’t a political philosopher.


#13

Thats odd when you clump scripture together is biblical when I do its cultish…thats a balanced argument :slight_smile:

Remember the father of the reformation was a monk…remember Martin Luther?

Also my clumping of scripture is historicly accurate. The tradition goes clear back to the first and second century of the early Christian church. So no, my interpretation of scripture in this instance is in no way “cultish.”

Christian monasticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anthony the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally, one of the most famouse monk evangelists in the history of the church:

Saints Cyril and Methodius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To think that many protestant churches send missions to a country that, with the exception of the brief period of USSR, has been Christian since the 9th cent.

Most of Europe was evangelized by monks. So no my interpretation of those clumps of scripture are in no way cultish they were interpreted taht way since at least the second century by the christian church.


#14

Sorry I reject secularism in all of its intonations. Not that I claim you are against Christians but secularism is the athiests proverbal camels nose under the tent.
Any time you have three or more people you have politics, for one or two will try to convense the third that they are right and the third person they are talking to is wrong, in that since anything we say or try to convence others of is politics.


#15

I don’t think “intonation” is the word you were going for there. Maybe “incarnation.” At any rate, from your comments, I take it you’re a Catholic? I ask because I don’t see how it’s possible to be a Protestant and at the same time “reject secularism.”


#16

Nicely put, J. Saved me the trouble. And condensed Jack H.‘s wall o’ text posts quite well, too, I think :wink:


#17

Nope, I’m Eastern Orthodox, the Church that the Bishop of Rome broke away from in 1049ce. Since the first century, the Church has always believed the material and the spiritual are interconnected and undivided. Thus also, there is no distinction between the private and the public expression of faith, nore should there be. RCC and there offspring the protestants do make the distinction between the spiritual and the physical (i.e. the flesh is a prison of sorts of the spirit (which is good)) and therefore secularism is simply a extension of that element of their ideology.

p.s i should have probably used the word “Variations/forms.”


#18

AWWW goodness kids. This Passage has to do, not with money, not with material things, But with the relationship with Christ. There is nothing wrong with money or material things, it’s just the stumbling block so many have to drawing closer in the Christian relationship. Whether you give lots of money or a ‘ha’pence,’ the widows mite or the Pharisee’s dollar it’s a heart thing. If I have millions where is my heart, in the millions or with Christ? Is I am a pauper, where is my heart with envy for others or with Christ?
Reread this again.
And Jack H; the Apostles did work as well as evangelize. Paul , although raised and trained as a Pharisee, became a tent maker, Peter, Andrew Jame [ early martyr] fished on occasion] many were supported by the alms box but they also were bivocational.


#19

Good points H and njc.


#20

You have absolutely no case here. You have no arguments that will be accepted by any mainstream Christian denomination. Not even the strange outer 1% Christian fringe will accept your arguments as applied to the worldwide growth and expansion of 21st century Christendom.

And don’t deny that you are trying to make the situation that existed in the 1st century, the standard that should be followed by 21st century Christendom as it advances worldwide.

Your attempt to do that is the main point of your OP and following posts.


Here is your position as applied to Robert the missionary and his family and his growing church here in the 21st century:

Mr. John Smith a Christian husband and father spends untold thousands of dollars puting his son Robert through grade school, followed by 4 years in a Christian university where Robert is preparing for a life as a Christian missionary in one of the African countries.

In Robert’s 3rd year at Christian university he marries his childhood sweetheart and they start building a family. After Robert graduates he spends the following year in special studies preparing to join the missionary team in Africa where they have already built a large church and they now have plans to expand their infrastructure because they are growing in numbers and they are hard pressed for more room to meet the needs of their growing congregation.

They need leadership and they need MONEY to grow larger and meet the physical and spiritual needs of more and more people who need not only to hear and learn the gospel but who have material needs as well.

This large growing church has many families with many teenages and many small children and they needs more Sunday School rooms and a larger infrastructure to meet the needs of the church as they are working to meet the needs of the people in their city.

The church now has an annual budget of $400,000 and they want to expand and grow to an annual budget of $600,000 in the next 3 years, so they can meet both the spiritual and material needs of more and more people in their city.

This church has a pastor and his family and an associate pastor and his family and several missionaries with their families attached to the church and all these people work very hard and must be paid salaries so the can buy food to eat and have electricity and buy food and clothes for their children. (Cameryxle, why would I tell you the obvious about all the above pragmatic necessities essential to church growth? Answer: Because you seem not to be aware of the obvious!)

** Now here is Cameryxle’s interpretation of the New Testament as applied to Robert the missionary and his family and to the growing church in Africa: **

Start quote: "Matthew 10:9 Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;

Matthew 10:10 take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

Mark 6:9 Wear sandals but not an extra tunic.

Luke 9:3 He told them: "Take nothing for the journey–no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic.

Luke 10:4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

Luke 22:35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered.

So yes the Lord commanded them to be pennyless that God would provide and he did through those that heard and believed." End quote demonstrating Cameryxle’s interpretation and application of New Testament texts to Robert the missionary and his family and to the Church in Africa.


Btw, you’re ignoring all the points I made up-thread that would be difficult for you to answer and you’re simply stating and re-staing your positions.

But thats okay because this is the web and here in Webby World (the land haunted by “The 1% People”) ignoring difficult points is the name of the game, so its cool.


Conclusion:
Here is Cameryxle’s message to the 21st century Christian Church based upon his interpretation and application of a cluster of New Testament texts:

** Cameryxle’s position: ** Jesus wants all you 21st century Christians to obey the Great Commission in Mt. 28 and Christianize the world and He wants you to get it done with no gold and silver (IE money) in your bank accounts, no suitcases and no extra clothes. (See those New Testament texts up-post that you quoted as applicable to the way 21st century Christians should spread the gospel)

The above is the position you have defended so far in this thread. It is in fact your position.

Cameryxle, you should let it go for your own mental and emotional well-being, your position on this will not make you a happy Christian because your position cannot be squared with the New Testament as a whole. The New Testament SYSTEM is against you on this and so is the Bigger Picture of Christendom and so is a New Testament based Christian Philosophy, not to even mention 99.99% of Christendom. You’re in the strange weeds here and you’re trying to make something make sense that can’t possibly ever make sense.

:santa: