Isn't illegal immigration illegal?


It may be a poor point of debate, but is it true that:

1)Mr. Trump is against **ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION YES NO
**2)The law made illegal immigration illegal **YES___________NO
**3)Mr.Trump did not make the law **YES____________NO
**4)Those that abide by a law are,ipso facto,***law abiding citizens *****YES___________NO
**5)Those that are against a law are not. **YES NO
**Ergo, Democrats in general and H.Clinton in particular are WHAT? Anti-law? Anarchists? And the ***assistance of any person or persons to avoid the law is abetting their crime…
***Surely Hillary Clinton, lawyer, can see that…

Oh Dear

The Senator:embarrese


Except, the illegality is a bit different than say, stealing something.

Alcohol distilleries which had been in the U.S. for over a century were suddenly illegal in the 1930s. People who had been law-abiding were suddenly on the other side of the law, for simply doing what they always had been.

Equally, if these people had immigrated here in the 1950s, most wouldn’t be illegal. Most would be legal.

Our immigration, for the most part, has not change since then… Our laws did. And it was a turn for the worst. It’s a hard to use system that turns away over 70% who apply.

Not because they’re terrorists, not because they’re sick, but because they’re poor, and don’t have the narrow list of labor skills a bureaucrat is looking for. Under that criteria, my own Great-grandparents from Norway wouldn’t have made it here.


What has changed is that today we are full. NO MORE!


I would not say that we are full. We have room for more productive citizens. I’d say it’s more like we are getting overwhelmed. We have had enough of allowing EVERYBODY to come into this country with NO VETTING. The Demcrats support allowing convicted felons to stay or return to this country to commit repeated crimes. I don’t understand that at all. I don’t know why a majority of our citizens don’t understand that.

People who are obeying the law and trying to get into this country legally can’t without huge hassles. Others just walk in. It isn’t fair.

I am not anti-immigrant; I am anti open border.


… So you’re a Malthusian, claiming we need to stop reproducing? We’re at the “carrying capacity” of the land?

That’s not what’s happening.

We have a micromanaging legal immigration system, that will “fail” you for not coming from the right part of the western hemisphere on Tuesday.

Alongside that, we have a black market in immigration that fulfills the needs of people like Dairy Farmers, who haven’t been getting enough American workers for decades.

And that’s the real choice we have. We can either have an energetic immigration system like we did in the 19th century… or we can have a black market in labor.

Or, we can kill our own economy. Which is, bar none, the best way to get rid of immigrants… short of an ethnic cleansing.

I am not anti-immigrant; I am anti open border.

No, you’re anti-law breaking, which is fine.

America had an open border for 140 years, Texas had an open border policy right up until the 1960’s, eschewing Bracero (Barry Goldwater’s argued approach) in favor of that policy.

Open borders, is not what gave us our large illegal immigration problem. What gave us that problem, is a mismatch between labor demand, and legal labor supply. The latter was too small, so employers & immigrants went under the table to get their needs met.

We have been getting “low skilled” Mexican immigration for over a century; far older than our current immigration system. The Government should not have been trying to dissuade it, it did not understand what is was getting into.


BS. It was LONG before the 1950’s that uncontrolled immigration was brought under control. Both sides of my own family came to the New World (What eventually became the U.S.) LONG before there WAS a U.S. My first ancestor to do so came here in 1657 on one side of my family and, on the other side, came here in 1725 and fought on the side of the “rebels” during the Revolutionary War. It’s true that there were no “immigration controls” in place back then, but the flood of immigrants coming around the turn of the 20th Century is what provided the impetus for developing criteria for potential immigrants. The current crop of “immigrants” have no interest in–nor intention to–becoming Americans and adopting OUR culture, language and customs. They come here to make as much money as possible–by working or riding government-provided welfare–and then either going back where they came from flush with U.S. dollars or converting parts of the U.S. into enclaves of their old countries.


Which was a mistake; America enjoyed it’s greatest period of growth in the 19th century.

Trying to “control it”, instead of just keeping the old standards relating to sickness, turned out to be no different then how the Democrats tried to control growth in Detroit in the 1960s. They were trying to control something they didn’t understand.

Economically illiterate policy beget more economically illiterate policy. Since 1914, only the 1950’s provided an example where our legal immigration system wasn’t a disaster.

The current crop of “immigrants” have no interest in–nor intention to–becoming Americans and adopting OUR culture

Not a problem; neither did immigrants in the 19th century. Most 1st generation people did not fully assimilate. German immigrants peaked in the 1870’s… by 1900 there were still 700 German newspapers brands being published in the U.S.

You should learn about the history of Mutual aid societies Dave, it would open up your eyes to how immigrants actually acted upon coming here. There were “conclaves” galore, and mutual aid was at the center of promoting them.

They come here to make as much money as possible–by working

Oh no, working immigrants, the horror.

Remittances do not hurt our economy Dave, you need to abandon this fixed-pie fallacy of yours.


In case you haven’t noticed, there are 97 MILLION, able-bodied American citizens unable to find work. Who do you think is DOING that work? Hint: It AIN’T legal immigrants…except in places like Disney which are “importing” H-1-B immigrants who’ll work for less and are displacing American workers–who, ironically, are TEACHING these H-1-B folks how to do their own jobs.


Because we pay millions in unemployment, so people don’t go looking in the places that are hiring. They stay in their blighted urban “utopias” until something pops up.

Meanwhile Immigrants head for the jobs that Americans otherwise would have abandoned, because said jobs are in places like Utah and South Dakota, where the urbanites don’t want to work.

And so once again, I will tell you Dave, KNOCK OFF THE FIXED PIE FALLACY. It wasn’t convincing two years ago, and it’s never going to be.

We don’t have a fixed supply of jobs and we aren’t made poorer because the immigrants send money home.

That’s just as much garbage as worrying about the “trade deficit”.

Who do you think is DOING that work? Hint: It AIN’T legal immigrants

Because the legal system is broken, and treats Dairy farmers as seasonal work, so they can’t get legal employees when they need them.

Because Government is stupid, and has never had to run a dairy farm.

Indeed, that’s whole answer: Government is stupid, it’s management of immigrants should be as minimal as possible if we the people are smart.


Not this tired nag again…

(On edit: I don’t mean the OP, but AL’s immigration soapbox.)


Even before the current influx of illegals we had problems with it. My cousin worked as a border patrolman on the Tx Mex border & I talked to him about it. To put the problems in context I’ll use an example. Bank robbing is an illegal act. Say you robbed a bank & got caught. They took you to jail & kept you for a couple of days & then let you go because there wasn’t any punishment for doing that illegal act. So why would you not go out & rob another bank hoping that this time you would get away with it?
That is exactly what the border patrol is up against. Catch them, hold them a couple of days & then let them go across the border. And the faster you deport them, the faster they get to try it again. And yes indeed he has caught the same person several times in one week. To me the obvious answer is to either stop the circle by letting them stay (which I’m against) or attaching some sort of punishment to the CRIME of coming into this country illegally. Make it not worth while to take the chance.
So how about some sort of mandatory public work program say for 6 months each time your caught? And how about if you have been here a while you lose EVERYTHING that you have earned or bought while here (it goes to the government). That’s not fair some of you will think. But it’s pretty standard in U.S. law that if you profit from a crime you don’t get to keep that profit. Take the reasons out of coming here, raise the risk in coming here & people will stop doing it. Just my thoughts.
Oh & of course with less people sneaking across the border those that still try it will stand out more. Might be handy to help catch someone wanting to attack the U.S…


OK, my pet (weird) idea. Hire 20 people. Have them dress up to look like illegals. Apply disaster make up to all of them & make them look like they were shot while crossing over the border. Have a couple of hundred thousand copies of those photo’s made with the caption “What we do to illegal aliens” & air drop them around the Mexican border. I’m betting that it would slow them down at least some. (wink)


Because again; that kind of crime (bank robbery) has always been wrong.

By comparison, people have been coming across our border before our current immigration system was in place. People action’s haven’t changed, the law changed to make what was before unremarkable, everyday behavior, illegal.

Which was a really dumb move. No different than prohibition.

> That is exactly what the border patrol is up against. Catch them, hold them a couple of days & then let them go across the border. And the faster you deport them, the faster they get to try it again. And yes indeed he has caught the same person several times in one week. To me the obvious answer is to either stop the circle by letting them stay (which I’m against) or attaching some sort of punishment to the CRIME of coming into this country illegally. Make it not worth while to take the chance.

Except, we will never control it. We never have.

Laws have need of efficacy, and they can only have it by answering the circumstances on the ground.

The circumstances here, is that people in the U.S. want to hire these people, the people want to come here, and we have over 4,000 miles of both coastline & border we cannot possibly seal. To do so would require restricting all traffic across the border, and creating a blockade of Coast guard ships along the coasts. Which we aren’t going to do.

We can however get a handle on the immigration itself, by doing the same thing Eisenhower did in his tenure. Rather than suppressing legal immigration, we allow it to approach the natural immigration rate.

If people feel the system is fair and will generally let them through, they’ll use it, rather than crossing a desert, with the threat of police action hanging over their heads the entire time they’re here.


And I’m tired of the Fixed Pie fallacy.

Seriously, you can only believe this if you’re a liberal. You’re worshiping at Krugman’s tinfoil alter.


And I’m tired of you continually claiming that’s what our arguments are. If you think what illegals are costing us is “fixed,” just look at how “fixed” your tax bill has been over the past 40 years.


Nobody is talking about a “fixed pie.” Take a look at what your own tax bill has done in the last 30 years if you think what illegals are costing us is “fixed.” What you’re advocating is making working Americans and LEGAL immigrants into tax slaves to support a bunch of folks who move here primarily for the “benefits” the government gives them. The Obama administration has published Spanish-language “HOW TO” pamphlets and distributed them throughout Mexico and Central America showing people how to get here, cross illegally and then apply for government “help.” Who do you think PAYS for this stuff? It ain’t illegals themselves.


And… you just changed the topic Dave. We were not talking about taxes, which is a fiscal matter. We were talking about their effects on the labor market, which is an economic matter.

Immigrants use less benefits than Americans, so this argument is moot anyway.

On topic: Immigrants take jobs from individual people, not the labor force. Rather, Immigrants add jobs to overall economy overtime. Fact. I can literally quote the analysis of 6 different economic think tanks who will point this out. American Enterprise, Mises, Manhattan, Independent, Mercatus, and FEE.

You can (like Obama did) point to the ATM taking individual jobs from people, just as you pointed to the H1-B visa holders replacing Americans in theirs. You’re both still wrong about how this affects the unemployment rate, because you don’t ask how this affects the wider economy. You don’t ask if this creates jobs elsewhere.

You both only paid attention to what you see, when half of economics is what goes unseen.


I was trying to understand this statement


From what I understand California has so many illegals getting free stuff and with the governor wanting to give even more to illegals and sanctuary cities many people are leaving the state to get away from paying for it. Chicago is another one where they want the rest of the state to pay for their illegals.

Illegal Immigrants Get Over $1,200 More In Welfare Benefits Than American Families A Year - Matt Vespa

As Leah wrote yesterday, there’s a huge spike in illegal aliens pouring across the border. The exodus from Central America has reportedly created the largest case of mass immigration since the 1980s. These people are often poor and need assistance in order to survive. When American citizens fall on hard times, they look to the social safety net. For some in Washington, they’re designing the net to trap the working poor into government dependence, instead of a temporary cushion from total disaster.
That’s a separate debate, but for those American families receiving government assistance, I’m sure they’re probably not happy that illegals are receiving over $1,200 more in benefits every year (viaWashington Examiner):


Yea, they cost $113 Billion per year, which I think is a low figure…