Libertarians


#21

CSBROWN, don’t throw the racist label at me again.
That is the last warning you will get.

Dispute my posts all you want, but your approach in that post will not fly here.

It was Johnson who designed welfare, and that was it’s purpose. To get black people voting Democrat was the reason he created it. He was far less kind in his description of the intended recipients. I do believe his words were: “I’ll have those ________ voting Democrat for 200 years.”

The reparations description is absolutely how it is treated by the left. Any attempt at welfare reform is treated as taking something away from black people that is owed to them.

As to the rest of your post, there are many, many programs that need to be cut, or eliminated. By no means was the few I mentioned supposed to be a definitive list.


#22

Yes, Johnson has been the worst president of my lifetime. Vietnam plus his programs that exploded the size of the welfare state made his presidency a flat tire on all sides. Johnson really did make it possible to lay back in your hammock, light up a Camel and take it easy if you really didn’t want to go to the trouble of making something more of your life.

He thought he was the second coming of Franklin Roosevelt with his bloated welfare state and in a way he really was. He expanded government programs and completely turned the African-American vote Democrat, and it’s been that way for over 50 years.


#23

Tell ya what, support your claim that I want government involved in everything and we can talk more. I’m wagering that I want a smaller government than you do—as I’ve said fairly recently in other threads, I don’t believe government has many necessary responsibilities beyond a bare protection of basic rights.


#24

Hey Devilneck, CSbrown is right. What you said about welfare being “reparations” to black citizens is racist garbage. Threatening to ban someone for calling you out on it is a joke.


#25

To be clear, I think there are people who are racist and people who say things that are racist and I don’t think the two are necessarily the same. One is fueled by the hatred and ignorance the other just ignorance (respectively). I’ve never seen anything that would me to believe that you are, in your heart, a racist person, however, what you said is racist. Now I’m not testing your capacity to throw me out of this forum, I’m just trying to make a distinction, one that I should have made clearer in my last post.

I don’t know you well enough to judge your true intentions, I can only judge the things you say…Though, ironically, there are a lot of people here who seem to be able to judge me…But I digress.

Well that’s pretty stupid given that 11% of the population was black (about 20 million) and what? Half of that was old enough to vote, so 10 million of which about 55% showed up to the polls in 1968, or about 5 million people of a population of 203 million? And that assumes that 100% of that 5 million voted democrat. And lastly, it also assume that all blacks receive some kind of assistance or that those that don’t would somehow automatically favor it.

Johnson should have said that it would encourage poor people, or single mothers to vote democrat.

However, your comment wasn’t addressing what Johnson said in the 1960’s (right or wrong). We’re talking about today and you still think that Welfare programs are just something the government does to win voters?

Not something that people believe is the right thing to do? That’s pretty messed up.

While I’m sure you can find examples of people who think that, I rebuke the idea that, as a political ideology, that people who identify as “left” think about welfare programs as “reparations” given the fact that the vast majority of people that receive assistance AREN’T BLACK!

Though there is certainly a big difference in the perception of who receives benefits…

Of course there are a few ways to look at this…

Percentage of black households that receive assistance.

Percentage of blacks as a percentage of the overall population.

As a percentage of households, it’s probably around 50% that receive some kind of assistance and about 1/2 of that for whites, but as a percentage of the overall population, the percentage of blacks receiving assistance is quite low.

Thus, about 19 million black households vs 78 million white households.

The racist accusation is that you said:

“Welfare will never go away because that has become “reparations” for the people who claim to be descendants of slaves. It is owed to them.”

Regardless of Johnson’s original intentions, hopefully, you’re smart enough to realize that if support comes from anywhere because of assistence programs, most of it comes from white people.

No, taking away welfare causes people to suffer. That’s why the vast majority of people who support welfare programs, regardless of your political affiliation (as you don’t have to be on the “left” to support assistance programs) support it.

To what end?


#26

Hey J.Anderson, I see you’ve discovered where the line is. Good for you.

One thing that CS Brown hasn’t done, at least in my observations, is declare everyone who disagrees with him is a racist homophobic whatever. That is where you stepped over the line.

Where he stepped in it above was very clear:

Thanks for playing though.


#27

Hatred, yeah, I have that in spades. I have it for lots of people, things, and behavior patterns.

Ignorance? No, I don’t think so. I think I know where my knowledge is, and I tend to stay out of discussions where I have none, or I usually qualify with a “from my view” type of statement.

I don’t find my statement racist. I wouldn’t if anyone else said it.

You are absolutely correct that, if you go nationwide, you will have more whites on welfare. They are the majority of the population nationwide so that only makes sense. What you may be missing though is that Johnson was a Texan. He was a Southern born and raised Democrat. Down South, blacks make up a larger part of the population. It’s kind of a result of the civil war. Many freed slaves were not in a position to move, and many didn’t want to. They stayed, often in the same area as sharecroppers.

I think what you may have issue with is that I didn’t mention everyone else who is on welfare. They were not the intended beneficiaries.

Was it a stupid attempt? I don’t think so. For 50 years the Democrats had a lock on sizable voting block. If you don’t agree that welfare is the main reason for that, I don’t know what to tell you. Obama’s going to put gas in your car, and give you a phone. Only recently are we seeing that voting block start to fall apart.

My statement wasn’t clear. I should have said “many democrat politicians view welfare as reparations”

I don’t view it as such. I view it as what it was intended for. A bribe to vote democrat. It’s not just for any one racial group. It is absolutely for one economic group, and that has become, as you said, almost 50% of the population.

No politician is going to go out and shoot their own self intentionally by making a statement to alienate their base. No intelligent Republican is going to go out on an anti 2nd Amendment platform.

Hopefully that clears things up for you. I’m glad to know you don’t think there is intentional racism in my heart. I know only one color, and that is green.

What I would like to avoid is having people cry “racism” when they read something they don’t like. That is not conducive to a discussion forum.
In the future, instead of calling racism, you might try asking for clarification and dispute the post, as you did above.

We’ve banned enought real racists here that you should know it’s not tolerated. I think all of the mods have family members of different races, myself included.


#28

There is another alternative, think more carefully about how the things you say will be perceived as racist. I don’t get people asking me to clarify my positions here very often before I’m accused of (insert accusation here) and I don’t know why the burden should rest on me when you’re the one that said it.


#29

I know a lot of people that would lose their (poop) after reading what you wrote and would make the leap that you are an avowed racist who hates black people (let me reiterate, that I do not think that).

I think there are large cultural divides between some blacks and some whites, none being as stark as the innercity blacks and rural whites. They live in different worlds, they get their information from different places and they largely misjudge the other IMO.

I read a story the other day, and I can’t remember the specifics to save my life, but the story was about a group of blacks that were violating the civil rights of whites. It floored me when I read that some blacks believe that they cannot violate the civil rights of whites. So yeah, there is definitely issues on both sides.

The idea of “white privilege” isn’t a concept that sits well with me. I grew up with a single mom in the 1970’s and I can tell you, the fact that I was white didn’t convey many privileges. However, looking back if you asked me if I’d rather be white than black in those circumstances, I’d probably pick white. But then again, I’d probably pick being a man over a woman. Does that mean that male privilege is a thing…Oh wait, never mind…Sigh.

I’ve met face to face with progressives that push these narratives and I oppose them, face-to-face. I don’t think they accomplish the goals they claim to want and only divide rural whites and urban minorities farther apart.

So I’m understanding of the kinds of perceptions that people have on both sides of the debate. However, I also think that part of the problem is that neither side is capable of trying to “walk a mile” in the other person’s shoes. I’ve lived on both sides of the “tracks” and I see things from a very human point-of-view, not a political one.


#30

There are many folks who view opposition to welfare as racist. Trump voters are considered racist by many because they believe the president is a racist. Some even say all white people are racist. Some morons even say everyone is racist. The use of the word has become absurd. The word is literally dropped everywhere for any reason. I think yours and DN’s discussion clarified a lot from both of your perspectives. And it saved me arguing with him about the flag. I appreciate that you addressed the comment and not the person posting it in the first place. Just like you said, folks ought to be aware of what their comments sound like, which means folks ought to be aware of what they sound like when they invoke “racism.” It’s better to find out more before shutting down the conversation with terms like that.

DN has a perception of welfare and its purpose. That perception may be disputable. It’s fair for you to question it. Perhaps DN needs better facts. Perhaps he has a point. Certainly if it were ever true, it’s no longer the primary purpose of modern welfare programs. I think those are mainly attempts to legislate prosperity at some level in a nation where the economy is ruled by politicians motivated by their own lust for political power as well as sincere but ignorant economically illiterate do-gooders who think we can solve poverty with yet another government handout or program.

That may be. But you’re a socialist. What do you expect :wink:

Your last post is very excellent and appreciated as well.

At least it won’t be illegal immigration again…

From the billions remaining in a freely operating economy. They’ll be spent just the same, efficiently though (from an economics perspective), creating and providing jobs, while guarding against the high cost of free stuff (demand rises when prices fall – especially when the price is zero for the decision maker, who is the politician, and the customer. The purchaser has no say except one measly nearly worthless vote. In other words, jobs will exist, and stuff will be relatively affordable.

Why do you think education dies without a paternalistic government “providing” it? I put “providing” in quotes because it doesn’t really provide squat. It just takes and then spends money without any guidelines or pressure except politics, which change on a whim. We have a Democrat House as of tonight! In just two short years, the Republicans have lost their complete control when they could have acted like Republicans, and after six years, the moron from San Hellfrisco is back in the saddle again.


#31

Absolutely. Of course!!


#32

The real problem isn’t the deficit; it’s debt, which keeps growing no matter how small the deficit. And one of these days, that camel’s back is going to say: “That’s a straw too far…”

Not really. I certainly wouldn’t call it universal or even a majority of leftists of viewing it that way, but that attitude is significant and growing.

Two things: One, paying for those things PLUS an ineficient/abusive government bureaucracy is worse than nothing wherein the taxes aren’t charged from the taxpayers first. Socialism never levels the playing field; it just generates a majority poverty class and a wide divide between them and the elites who ruined their lives with the socialist claptrap. Two, just because it’s desirable for things to be done doesn’t automatically mean that the resources to do it exist.

They’ll work at new jobs created by the money in the economy that the government didn’t charge in taxes for all the socialist garbage.

“Life isn’t fair” can be a cop out, but it’s also a truth. Socialism is a lot less fair in the long run.

We already have that with the socialist school system that generates people who vote liberal…

The day is young…


#33

All this BS is well and good as long as you IGNORE the fact that there are more white Americans than black Americans…by a couple of orders of magnitude.


#34

Apparently you weren’t in the mood to read my post. Next time you might take a second to read (and understand) and save yourself some time and potential embarrassment.

If the black population is 20 million and the total population is 203 million, who do you think makes up the other 183 million? I thought that was pretty obvious. At the time 179 of the 183 million were white.

THen I went a step further…

Here I point out by percentage of households and point out that as a percentage, black households are twice as likely to receive some type of government benefit. if I was trying to misrepresent the reality, I would have left this out.

The larger point I was making with the graphic is that Trump supporters (literally people who identify with supporting Trump) overestimate the raw numbers. However, in fairness, in my anecdotal experience, I find that most people think there two to three times as many black people in the US as there actually are.

I’ve asked quite a few people what percentage of blacks make up the US population. Most people I ask say between 30-40% when in reality it’s more like 14%.

The question is, does anyone here care about facts or is it the perception that matters?

Politicians sell perception and appeal to emotion. ALL of them, but none more so than Trump. He has skillfully usedKayfabe, which is a term used in “professional” wrestling, but I think it applies in ALL modern politics…

If you’re really interested in learning more about it, I recommend this vid…


#35

Completely agree. I attended an econ conference in New York and literally got in a heated discussion with a group of black women who were insisting that failure to see the world from their point-of-view makes me racist (ME!!!..LOL).

I stood up in a room of 50 people and asked them, what they were trying to accomplish with their retoric? After 5 minutes of blathering on about what they think they are entitled to I simply asked this question…

And how is what you’re advocating helping you accomplish the goals that you have set for yourselves?

I’m kicking myself for not recording it.

I didn’t get any coherent responses, just a lot of meaningless justifications for supporting ideas that won’t help them achieve what they want. However, with respect to the folks here, I see the exact same issue on the far right. It’s driven by emotions like fear and anger, not facts and a desire to accomplish real tangible goals.

I recognize that these people are at least partially delusional because they are angry and emotion is driving their agendas.

Despite what the people here think, I really do make an attempt to listen to the positions of the people here so I can learn more by actually talking to the people here. It may not seem like it, but I’ve learned quite a bit and a few things have even swayed my opinions on a few things. I’ve even reference my conversations here with “liberals” several times as examples of real conversations based on personal interaction, rather than just my perception of what people on the “right” (and the others here) think.

LOL, That’s probably tongue-in-cheek, but I prefer a mix of capitalism and a government that utilizes it’s position to create equity so that all children as they become adults have no excuse for failure.

I think some things don’t lend themselves to privatization. Free education, prisons, roads, utilities just to name a few. Now you can call that socialism, but like most things, the issue isn’t black and white rather measured in terms of extremes. My position my be extreme from where you sit, but in the realm of “socialism”, it is not.

BTW, I hope you will watch that video above. I’d like to get your opinion. I doubt Dave will watch it for me and even if he does, I can already guess his response will probably consist of the letters B and S. I suspect your response, whatever it is, will be a bit more articulate.

-Cheers


#36

Well, I watched it and you’re right. It’s BS. Do I acknowledge that much of what the left-wing media says and does on air and in print IS BS? OF COURSE.


#37

If you watched it then you should know what I mean when I say you are the Mark.


#38

Because you’re an “insert accusation here”!


#39

Yes,the whol line is tongue in cheek.


#40

Other groups who also vote for the Left to keep the gravy train running.

Welfare expansion converted the black vote from mostly GOP to mostly Democrat; that is just a fact.

It is also a fact that other groups who embraced the Welfare lifestyle also became consistent Democrat voters; 2 things can be simultaneously true whether the Racist creators had that in mind or not.

It is also a fact that poverty was converted from a cyclical problem to a generational problem with the Welfare expansion, it was not the same people and families in perpetuity like it is now.

The facts say that those who embrace the Welfare State are not “friends of the poor”, they are just creating and sustaining a plantation of voting slaves (of multiple ethnicities).