Mandatory Military Service?


#1

Now, I may be a little bias here, because I am about to “freely” enter the services. I put freely in quotes because if you read my story here: http://www.republicanoperative.com/forums/f44/joining-military-bad-economy-38639/ you will see that I don’t have any more choices…

Anyway, would you support mandatory service?

Think of the benefits it will do for this country:
[LIST]
[]No unemployment
[
]Millions of new jobs
[]Millions of trained workers
[
]More respect to veterans
[]Better civilian conversion routes-- meaning more jobs will be available to veterans if everyone had to go through with it
[
]No, “I hate this country” types.
[]No spoiled brats
[
]No Hippies
[]Millions of ready soldiers in case of full scale war
[
]Less spending on the unemployed
[/LIST]Hey, the country is experimenting with socialism now, so who knows. Maybe we will elect a four star general and he will whip this country into shape.

What could be the downside you ask?
[LIST]
[]Loss of freedom to choose
[
]More government military spending
[*]Larger Military (for the anti-military crowd but you wouldn’t exist if there was mandatory service)
[/LIST]


#2

What a nice authoritarian concept that is diametrically opposed to our rights to our lives, liberty and pursuit of happiness. No way would I support this in a million years. This is an absolutely disgusting idea.


#3

As is Obamacare but I’ll wage the military doing more good for this country than another big government empty shell of a program any day! So without any more emotional responses, can you clearly explain why you would oppose it? Especially since I already listed the three downsides I could think of. And honestly they aren’t too bad from where I’m sitting…


#4

You are too young to know but your list is wrong.

Think of the benefits it will do for this country:
•No unemployment not true, the military has just so many “openings” :grin:
•Millions of new jobs see above
•Millions of trained workers see above
•More respect to veterans sorry I’m from the Viet Nam era, questionable at best
•Better civilian conversion routes-- meaning more jobs will be available to veterans if everyone had to go through with it ?
•No, “I hate this country” types. I think there would be more because people don’t like “mandatory”
•No spoiled brats see above
•No Hippies :howler:
•Millions of ready soldiers in case of full scale war check
•Less spending on the unemployed ?

I lived through mandatory military service. Also remember even in the all voluntary military, some objected to going to war “gulf war” one person I remember well said “I did not join to go to war, I joined to get an education”. :howler:
.


#5

[quote=“jjf3rd77, post:3, topic:37393”]
As is Obamacare but I’ll wage the military doing more good for this country than another big government empty shell of a program any day! So without any more emotional responses, can you clearly explain why you would oppose it? Especially since I already listed the three downsides I could think of. And honestly they aren’t too bad from where I’m sitting…
[/quote]I’d be delighted.

If you have a right to your own life and property, the state does not. What you propose here makes a man a subject of the state (if not a single monarch). The legitimate purpose of the state is described clearly in the “Declaration of Independence.” The state exists to defend our “life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (property).” If the state starts enslaving its citizens (making them perform a task against their will), it is violating its own purpose.

All of your “downsides” sound very serious to me. Loss of freedom is a big deal. More military means more spending. More spending means higher deficits and accompanying economic difficulties or higher taxes.

BTW, why shouldn’t I say it’s disgusting if I think it’s disgusting? Why shouldn’t I have an emotional response to proposals to limit my liberty? Why do you say things like that? My response answered your actual OP question. It’s not a particularly emotional response. It’s an opinion that clearly answered the OP question. This response answers your next set of questions.

Your upsides are not upsides.
[LIST]
[]**No unemployment – **A government job is a government job. It costs money. Employment isn’t really a legitimate concern of government, but this solution is just like saying, let’s put all unemployed to work picking up trash on the street. It costs money, distorts and limits the economy. It’s big government at its finest, and the only difference between this and other solutions (mandatory civil service – which has been floated in the past at the federal level) is what kind of work is done.
[
]Millions of new jobs – The cash it takes to put these millions to work is cash that would put them to work elsewhere in the economy. If the central planning committee (Congress and the president) raise the funds to do this, they are diverting the funds from the actual uses that the members of the market (you and I and every other individual) really want. You’re making a broken windows argument, the kind Paul Krugman of the New York Times likes. It’s a miserable failure of an argument too, but it’s the kind of thing that ultimately says that Hurricane Sandy and Hurricane Katrina are actually good for the economy.
[]Millions of trained workers – See above.
[
]More respect to veterans – How so?
[]Better civilian conversion routes– meaning more jobs will be available to veterans if everyone had to go through with it – Why so? Veterans already have preferential hiring for public jobs city level to federal level. Why would increasing the number of veterans actually mean more jobs exist?
[
]No, “I hate this country” types. – I have a FB and know a DAV chapter that is full of those “types,” and they’re veterans.
[]No spoiled brats – Same as above.
[
]No Hippies – Some veterans I know are the coolest hippies I know.
[]Millions of ready soldiers in case of full scale war – We have the most powerful military in the world. We are ready for full-scale war if we must, and even if we don’t must.
[
]Less spending on the unemployed – This will cost more than unemployment payments (which the employed pay into prior to become unemployed). Salaries for soldiers will cost more. Changing the names from unemployed to soldiers will only increase overall spending, even if it might reduce the spending with the word “unemployed” on it.
[/LIST]

Hey, the country is experimenting with socialism now, so who knows. Maybe we will elect a four star general and he will whip this country into shape.
Yes, so let’s keep going and implement military rule over our socialism?


#6

Responsibilities as well as rights come with US citizenship. One of those responsibilities is serving in the military should the country deem it necessary. Conscription in normal and peaceful times is a grave error. Registering for selective service is required of males who are 18 through 25; however, military induction is not mandatory unless Congress decides a crisis warrants it (Selective Service System: Fast Facts). That is how it has been, will be and should be.

Selective Draft Law Cases - 245 U.S. 366 (1918) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center
Rostker v. Goldberg - 453 U.S. 57 (1981) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center


#7

I think you would find the quality of the military deteriorate as a result (as it invariably does when a draft is in effect). In a voluntary military, they have the option of rejecting those unsuitable for service.


#8

Even if mandatory, the military could still reject one from serving if deemed unfit. At least, our past conscription process worked that way. However, I do agree that an all volunteer military does increase the quality of the personnel.

I remember talking with a retired military guy that joined voluntarily but was in during Korea and Vietnam. He remembered the old saying from the draftees, “I didn’t ask to be here.” He said that they were correct and knew that he could only expect the lowest amount from them as a result. He said that the quality improved greatly as an all volunteer force.


#9

Until Korea - and Viet Nam in particular - people expected to be drafted. It was the way things were, and most of them would make the best of it. We don’t have that caliber of population today. People in general are too selfish. Although they hadn’t drafted for a long time, they were still doing “selective service” when FC joined. He kept getting notices to report to the selective service after he enlisted - and one was actually sent to him at the base where he was stationed! Ain’t government efficiency great!?


#10

I would probably hop the border into Canada if that happened in my lifetime.

I no longer have blind love for the government. I now realize the purpose of government and my role in it.

God didn’t put me in this world to go fight wars or be a slave. My parents didn’t raise me for that purpose. I didn’t go to school for that purpose.


#11

You beat me to it, but you are right

Not really and in fact my exp is that we had higher quality soldiers. In my unit in Vietnam most of us were draftees and we had a very high rep for fighting and wining…exceptionally so in fact. Draftee units were better and I have seen the studies that show this.

I transitioned from a draft Army to a VOLAR (VOLunteer ARmy). The quality of soldiers was epic fail:

I took over a a Platoon leader, 2/58th Inf, Ft Hood Texas around 1976. I was authorized 32 enlisted and 1 officer (myself). I had 48 enlisted assigned. Of that 48 soldiers, only 16 were able to move forward in the military and leave the unit under honorable conditions:

at teh end 18 mo I had:

1 soldier on death row

The FBI/DEA had picked up 3

The rest (I court martial) and none left the military with an Honorable discharge, they were scattered around Ft Hood stockade, Ft Leavenworth Federal Prison, Florida State Prison, Huntsville State Prison (Texas) and in assorted jails await felony charges across Texas and some other state.

I had one soldier, who came to work in a Chauffeur driven Limo every day, lived in a $375,000 home he paid cash for and when the FBI/DEA snatched him the drug business from Texas to California make a HUGE suckin sound and and a lot of folks went into withdrawals.

How bad was it on Ft Hood: On Payday Friday, Darnel Army Hospital had to staff up for OD’s, rapes, shooting and stabbings. The Officer of the day has to carry a .45, full clip and could NOT go on inspections alone. We average a rape per day on post. One of my soldiers robbed Ft Hood Nat Bank, in UNIFORM.

Had a soldier die in my arms before I could get him help he OD’d, still had the needle in his arm and was injecting Chocolate MILK mixed with drugs.

Drugs were so bad that that we would do a surprise inspection late at night and have folks outside the barracks with baskets and flashlights picking up the drugs as they got thrown out the windows. Nothing to get 3 or 4 bushels full, pot, coke, H, you name it.

I had soldiers that signed an “X” to pick up their paycheck, could not read or write.

We were 47% black and a HS diploma was a rare thing…

In talking with other officers this was common.[LEFT][/LEFT]


#12

[quote=“Conservative_Libertarian, post:8, topic:37393”]
Even if mandatory, the military could still reject one from serving if deemed unfit…
[/quote]One had to pass the physical and there were legitimate exemptions. If you failed boot camp or was judged unfit mentally or by other criteria you were out. You could also be kicked out for behavior.

[quote=“Susanna, post:9, topic:37393”]
Until Korea - and Viet Nam in particular - people expected to be drafted.
[/quote]Correct. I knew I would be called eventualy and I was not surprised when I received the notice to report.


#13

I had 5 uncles that were drafted and sent to Vietnam.When I was a child, I believed that I would be drafedt at age 18 and sent to Vietnam.


#14

The thing is the Korean and Vietnam wars were not even in close relevance to our national security, let alone defensive wars.

I would have marched with the hippies, minus the pot. The only smoke I like is the smell of pine needles and hickory wood.


#15

Would you really want to be associated with them? “Birds of a feather,” you know. People judge you by the company you keep, right or wrong; but if you consistently associate with certain types of people, you can expect to be lumped in with them.


#16

Yep, sleep with dogs and you too will get fleas

Or as my mama told me when I was about 10 or so: “see your friends, see you”


#17

Good point. I would start or join a more respectable protest I suppose.

Actually, one thing I just thought of was the anti-soldier hippies, who were apparently ignoring the fact that returning soldiers had been drafted!


#18

[quote=“Bigfoot_88, post:17, topic:37393”]
Good point. I would start or join a more respectable protest I suppose.

Actually, one thing I just thought of was the anti-soldier hippies, who were apparently ignoring the fact that returning soldiers had been drafted!
[/quote]Not all soldiers were drafted some joined.


#19

[quote=“samspade, post:18, topic:37393”]
Not all soldiers were drafted some joined.
[/quote]True.


#20

[quote=“samspade, post:18, topic:37393”]
Not all soldiers were drafted some joined.
[/quote]And some joined knowing they would be drafted otherwise so that they could, they hoped, have some control over the job they would be assigned.