Margaret Hoover interviews Alexandria Cortez, askes asinine question about capitalism


#21

Laffer is also a big supporter of the Federal Reserve Banking Cartel and allowing Federal Reserve Notes being made a “legal tender” in spite of our Founders forbidding any bank notes to be made a legal tender. The Federal Reserve system was a direct attack on our free market system and created a money monopoly which now plunders the wealth created by America’s businesses and labor.

JWK

"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it". — Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)


#22

That’s not an excuse to use the power poorly, or to violate liberty.

Facts are facts, and high taxes, produce low revenue. Again, Reagan talked about this all the time.

http://www.aei.org/publication/reagan-cut-taxes-revenue-boomed/


#23

You are the one who supports to socialist income tax.

:roll_eyes:


#24

Nope. I’m saying, you can’t use something in the Constitution, to do something knowingly destructive, that violates liberty.

Madison said that the tariffs can’t be oppressive; tariffs that intentionally target my buying behavior is oppressive. You’re violating liberty.

If this about revenue, then you’ll keep the tariffs low. Simple logic.


#25

Yup. You are the one who supports the socialist income tax just like Laffer does, who also supports the Federal Reserve System, both of which are designed to subvert a free market system.

:roll_eyes:

JWK

“Of all the contrivances for cheating the laboring class of mankind, none have been more effectual than that which deludes them with paper money. This is the most effectual of inventions to fertilize the rich man’s field by the sweat of the poor man’s brow.”_____ Daniel Webster.


#26

Never Have: Reagan supported the Curve:

So unless you’re saying it of him too; you’re just covering your behind for being wrong.


#27

Which has nothing to do with capitalism vs the free market system our founders created.

:roll_eyes:


#30

Pretty sure I directly responded to you. What question do you have and what answer shall I repeat?

And a great way for politicians to give a boost to their cronies.

Most of us who spend our time arguing in favor of free markets use this pretext most of the time. You’ll find it all through these pages. And you can find this same discussion elsewhere in these pages because we’ve discussed it before. We also talk about “freed markets” and “free enterprise.” We talk about economic liberty. If your point is that we should pursue free markets, you’re preaching to the choir. However, you seem to be arguing against economic liberty in this thread with your apparent support for Trump’s tariffs, which are very high, confiscatory, “crony capitalist” and an assault on free markets.

So you’re arguing that the Laffer curve is incorrect? That decreasing taxes cannot increase tax revenue? That President Reagan was wrong to invoke the Laffer curve as a reason to reduce taxes? That every conservative who has invoked it for the past 40 years is incorrect? Because Laffer supported the central bank?

Your answer to Alaska Slim’s assertion is really this? Laffer is a nitwit therefore Alaska Slim’s point is wrong? That’s a terribly empty argument.

No one is arguing that it doesn’t.

What is sad is that Congress has given up control over this tax and given it to the president to abuse on a pretext of national security – even when the president blatantly reasons that it’s really about jobs and managing the economy – the literal antithesis of free enterprise. He does it with 25-percent and 50-percent tax rates. You should be appalled by the president.


#31

That’s what you said. I said he supports the communist inspired income tax and also supports the Federal Reserve Banking Cartel and allowing Federal Reserve Notes being made a “legal tender” in spite of our Founders forbidding any bank notes to be made a legal tender. The Federal Reserve system was a direct attack on our free market system and created a money monopoly which now plunders the wealth created by America’s businesses and labor.

JWK

"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it". — Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)


#32

You did write you “…reject Donald Trump and his ongoing and ridiculous trade war…”

It’s not Trump’s trade war. It’s Trump’s response to China’s trade war with the United States which has been in progress long before Trump began running for office

In addition, I think Trump makes a valid point when he wants “reciprocal trade”.

JWK


#33

Which is deflection; no one but you was talking about the man, I was talking about the curve.


#34

Capitalism has nothing to do with Free Markets, Capitalism creates Capital and it requires no particular economic system to do that; one can “capitalize” on power, goods, services, space, talent, their name or any million and one other things. Capitalism occurs in Communist countries, Socialist countries, Dictatorial countries and every other societal formation.

Free Markets however provide the opportunity for the largest portion of the society to “Capitalize” on whatever is at their disposal, but the act of “Capitalizing” will absolutely NOT preserve the Free Market; unregulated Capitalism will destroy the Free Market without exception.

Free Markets work by raising quality and lowering prices due to the innovation and efficiency REQUIRED to remain competitive, as soon as the competition is reduced the Capitalism will remain but the innovation and efficiency will cease.

Capitalists will ALWAYS seek to use their success to prohibit new competition, they want to protect their Market; not the hard way by innovating and organizing in a superior manner as to beat their competition but by destroying their competitions ability to exist.

In an academic world these things are taught hypothetically by using a “Widget” as a commodity which has a Market, the competition keeps the “Widget” affordable and of high quality for the consumers and profitable for the suppliers; if one supplier sells too cheap they go bankrupt and if another sells them to high they also fail while those suppliers who get the numbers right live on to make profits.

This is fine for a rudimentary understanding of how a Free Market reaps benefits for a society as a self regulating entity but in the real world there are very few “Widget” companies, most companies that sell have thousands upon thousands of products available to their customers; to be successful they need to make a certain mark of profit each day, week, quarter and year regardless of what these individual “Widgets” sell for.

If the mark is made it matters not if some “Widgets” were sold for a loss and others for a profit, it only matters that the stores profits were at or above the desired mark for the desired time period.

The author of the article quoted earlier by RWNJ is correct when he describes the living hell a small business will go through to get started and the red carpet that is rolled out for large corporate businesses; but his conclusions that what Trump is doing is effectively attacking Free Markets is a non sequitur to his former points.

A Free Market cannot benefit everone if only one group is able to sell, the benefits of a Free Market only exist when EVERYONE is able to buy AND sell based on actual competitive neutrality (or as close to that as is possible); if all companies focused on one “Widget” their would be little need to intervene but that is simply not the case and it never has been for very long.

Laws (or trade deals if the Markets are in different political regions) prevent the attempts to monopolize a Market sector and they will be needed to prevent certain Market MODELS if we are to restore the Free Market.

Capitalism dictates that there will never be a time when those seeking to Capitalize will not devise ways to protect themselves from competition; when one method is closed another will always be dreamed up.

Up until now other nations have seen how to eliminate the United States from much of the supply chain and many native corporations have developed ways to undermine the more efficient competitive business models (small businesses) so that their own less efficient model can thrive; all of this has been legal because these models were created by politicians who either didn’t know better or did but sold their support for big donations.

The Free Market is basically dead in most Market sectors today, the Markets for almost everything have been consolidated to a very few entities and when something new is developed they quickly buy it up; this makes a millionaire out of one man but insures the future will not be populated by small business competition for their new “Widget” (which is added to their list of thousands of offerings).

Trump is counting on there being enough economic power in the United States to force other nations to stop walling off our products from their consumers, he figures they need us more than we need them; He is simultaneously reducing regulations and taxes that target small businesses far more destructively in our own Nation. I think he is right and I also think that what will follow this wrestling match is a Market that is much more “Free”.

Trumps critics are hoping the short term discomfort of this fight will cause the people to demand a return to the former structure where most are Peons and Surfs to the Corporate and International entities that can buy loyalty from our political class; I for one have been preaching about having this fight for decades to restore genuine Free Market competition so I am under no illusions that it can happen without some short term apple-carts getting tipped over.

After getting raped for decades by my own government I will happily contend with the obstacles of a short term “trade war” (idiot fodder term from Leftists I know); at least something positive can be gleaned from this struggle.


#35

Then what was your point bringing all of this up in response to Alaska Slim’s invocation of the Laffer curve?

It is Trump’s trade war. Everyone has had ridiculous tariffs, including the United States, for all manner of stupid reasoning. Tariffs, just like any other tax, shut down trade, which is the point Alaska Slim was making when he mentioned the Laffer curve. They hurt the folks they’re alleged to help. They increase prices on all of us on both sides of the pond. The folks who actually do better are the recipients of “crony capitalism.” That’s why Whirlpool begged for tariffs on washing machines earlier this year. Unfortunately for Whirlpool, Trump’s steel tariffs are erasing their crony gains.

The best way to handle someone else’s tariffs is free enterprise.

Reciprocal trade does not require Donald Trump. I can trade with the Chinese just fine without him. He’s just making it harder and more expensive for me to trade – Please note the lack of liberty, the lack of “free,” in Trumponomics.

RET, a small business in my area is paying substantially more for American steel. Its products will cost more. That additional revenue, should the company be able to continue to sell as much as it has been overseas, won’t appear in my wife’s paycheck. Donald Trump is contributing to the living hell a small business must go through to continue operating. It is quite sequitur. It’s cronyism – although that’s probably the wrong word because I don’t think it’s deliberate. I think it’s based in the economic illiteracy the man has shown for 40 years.

Trump is walling of their consumers from our products. The price of our products is increasing regardless of whether other nations stupidly retaliate. Donald Trump could literally be directly responsible for putting my wife out of work. Her company has plenty of competition. Donald Trump is making her company less competitive.

But he’ll make the already growing steel industry happy, I suppose, for awhile.

I think he is wrong, and we should avoid handing over our economic liberty to politicians. My foreign trade was doing just fine without Donald Trump, and it wasn’t hurting you or anyone else. No one is entitled to the cash I spend, not you and not an American steelworker, not until I agree to trade with you or the American steelworker. Donald Trump is limiting my ability to trade. He’s limiting the ability of small business to trade. The domestic market won’t sustain my wife’s business. But sacrifices must be made for the greater good…

Well, at least it’s not your apple cart.

Nothing positive comes from command economics. More raping is not a solution to rape.

How many apple carts have to fall before it’s too many? How much more rape must we endure before it solves the rape problem?


#36

This doesn’t actually happen.

The most protected industry across the planet is agriculture, and it’s the one where you have the most competition, because it’s a commodity that’s difficult to add value to.

Let’s take the example of New Zealand. New Zealand ended virtually all of their subsidies and tariffs on their agricultural sector in the 1980s. Yet not only did they not lose their agricultural sector, it’s still today 7% of their economy, which is far higher than usual for a developed nation.

With subsidies gone, New Zealand farmers had to find niches to fill to answer market demand. And they found them, in hard to grow nuts, organic farming, and brands prized for quality. Today, it’s one of the most innovative and productive agricultural sectors on the planet, because they took the crutch of subsidies & tariffs away, forcing farmers to consider value.

Even in a world where countries are levying tariffs over 200%, New Zealander farms still find a way to sell into those markets, and not only sustain themselves, but thrive.

Tariffs are not a advantage, they’re a crutch. They don’t monopolize, they weaken your industry’s capability to find value. That’s why France is talking about getting rid of their agricultural tariffs & subsidies, because they’re starting realize how damaging those things have been to. them. selves.

Uh, Trump is already offering crony arrangements in exchange for political support.

He did this with coal:

He did this with United States Steel Corp., and the “listening sessions”, where he’s hearing out CEOs from a range of companies, to protect them from their foreign competition.

You can’t hand waive this activity, it’s a blatant passing out of favors to elite capitlists. Trump isn’t stopping it, he’s just doing it in his own way.

Except it doesn’t require the assistance.

As the Heritage Foundation, who manages the Economic Freedom Index, states, the world economy has been getting more free as time has gone on.

https://www.heritage.org/index/book/chapter-2

All without any grandstanding by the U.S. that makes the world economy less free.


#37

Okay, I’m not following this thread closely, but this caught my eye. Whatever the merits or lack thereof of Trump’s tariffs, I’m curious as to how “economic illiteracy” reconciles with Trump being a billionaire.


#38

So is Oprah; doesn’t stop her from being illiterate either. Or George Soros, who apparently thinks the Government can better allocate resources than the market.

Trump for his part would be richer today, if he had taken the initial money his father gave him, and put it in stocks that performed at the average return rate.


#39

The “Laffer Curve” is a line where increased taxation begins to reduce government revenues due to slowing down sales, the economy is doing great and tax revenues are up so trying to cite the “Laffer Curve” is pretty ridiculous.


#40

No, it’s no purely about sales. There’s also Tax avoidance; where businesses will limit or stop producing a product, or leave the area, are also apart of it.

Higher taxes will get less activity generating Revenue. It’s absolutely true.

We cede a competitive advantage to other countries who won’t stop using the products as inputs in their production, and we make it harder for ourselves to capitalize, which is the biggest reason for imports.

That pipeline failing to get an exemption is exhibit A.


#41

Deflection? You are the one who constantly tries to switch the subject of the thread.

Your beloved “curve” has nothing to do with the wrong-headed notion of identifying our system as “capitalism”.

JWK

The liberty to succeed or fail at one’s own hand is a socialist’s nightmare and not the American Dream


#42

The curve proves you shouldn’t violate free enterprise. There’s no benefit to it.

Stop doing useless things. Stop ruining people lives, over stupid ideas that we know don’t work.

Equally, quit violating people’s liberty. It’s wrong. The collective can go hang.