North Korea


#1

First, a few “housekeeping” items.

China has been facilitating and no doubt directly contributing to the nuclear arms/missile development of NOKO for as long as I can remember. While it is fine to seek China’s help in reigning in One Hung Low/NOKO, if China really gave a damn about de-escalating the threat NOKO poses to the West it would have taken steps to do so long ago. In other words, when it comes to NOKO we can’t rely on China for a damn thing.

NOKO’s One Hung Low is not crazy/demented. He’s smart and cunning. This little piss hole of a country, One Hung Low’s dad and now its Pillsbury Doughboy leader - OHL - has played the United States and the West more effectively than even Iran.

Yes, we MUST take OHL at his word. He has threatened to nuke our allies and us when he is able - which, given NOKOs accelerated missile testing, could be relatively soon.

Finally, in a show of extreme weakness the newly elected far Left president of SO. Korea has suspended his nation’s previously agreed to United States deployment of several THAD batteries (Missile-TO-Missile Defense System). Such a system could be used to help ward off a missile attack from the north. It could be of great benefit to the So Koreans - not to mention the thousands of our troops currently deployed along the demilitarized zone separating NOKO/SOKO.

So, what to do.

Tell China we are out of patience and no longer intend to expose ourselves or our allies to the existential risk posed by NOKO and OHL (One Hung Low). Tell China it has 60 days to disarm the bastards in NOKO or we will begin nuclear talks with Japan with the intent of arming that nation so it may defend itself. China will immediately crap its pants.

Immediately begin talks with Japan to deploy THAD.

Tell the Liberal running SOKO that the world has shrunk dramatically since our defense of their nation was established in the early 50s and that because of this we no longer have a compelling need to remain deployed there - ESPECIALLY if his government refuses to accept a system (THAD) designed for defensive purposes. Therefore, should he continue to refuse deployment of THAD we will be pulling out of SOKO with the probable result being a civil war on the peninsula in which the barbarism of the north will win. In other words - “Look fool, your country and its people will exist under NOKO rule - we hope you enjoy eating grass.”

Finally, immediately draw up plans to remove all of our troops/munitions from SOKO as part of a larger plan to be developed ASAP to OBLITERATE NOKO before they become capable of wreaking havoc in that part of the world as well as in the US.

Announce to NOKO there will be no sit-down negotiations. They must stop the BS and disarm now - period!! If OHL refuses, light the bastards up!!

The time to play fast-pitch hardball is right now!! IMHO.


#2

X 99

WOW, I had to look at who posted this twice to make sure it was not me in my semi-sleep state from being awake most of the night doing software upgrades.

I was in Korea in '78-'79 on the DMZ, the Korean people loved us, most of the Korean leaders from the town Mayor to top leadership had fought in the Korean war (as my interpreter had or their fathers had. Today, we are no longer on the DMZ but in the S of the country and if that is the way they want it, then maybe its time to pull out completely.

The world was safe as long as America stood on the DMZ’s and Fulda Gaps of the world to protect the countries people at our own expense. Its time for them to pay up or us pull out.

As some have noted, far left thinking and socialism is sweeping the globe like wildfire. This rise of ‘free lunchism’ has come parallel with the global massive immigration that has taken place over the same time frame. The immigrants of today have arrived on foreign shores not to build a better life, start a business and assimilate into their country of choice but rather they are there to impose their will upon a new country and live off its largesse. Which has been brought on by the far lefts welcoming with open arms and checkbooks, free medical, free housing, and the proverbial free lunch. The lessons learned from the free lunch has put illegal and legal immigrants in the voting booth for those who offer a better free lunch.

Sad to say none of them had my daddy, because if they had, they would have learned like I did at a very young and tender age…there is NO FREE LUNCH!


#3

I spent 27 months in Korea between April of 1961 and August of 1963. I LOVED the country and its people. A more innovative and industrious people would be hard to find. True, they have some peculiar ideas about interpersonal relationships, such as believing (and TEACHING) that a woman who is a non-virgin is “unsuitable” for marriage because her husband’s children “won’t be pure blood.” Their contestants for Miss Korea MUST submit to a medical exam to prove that their hymen is intact! To Koreans, the lowest “caste” in the country are those children of mixed-race blood and they are treated horribly and denied some of the rights of other Korean citizens. Other than that, I found them to be polite, delightful people. I dated a Korean college student while there and we were stopped on the street once by a police officer who took my date aside and quietly castigated her for holding my hand in public, so there were a few exceptions, but for the most part, I really admired the Korean people. That said, it’s high time we brought out troops home and left the Koreans to their own devices.


#4

Concur. I spent my last 6 mo there as the S-5 and was the Liaison to the Korean people (as opposed to the Liaison to the military, that was the OTHER S-5). SO my time was out on civillian side of things dealing with the people and business owners. One of my most rewarding times I spent in the Army…


#5

It’s due to a power struggle within China. People loyal to the President-before-last, Jiang Zemin (known as “the toad”), are clandestinely giving nuclear material to North Korea, even after the current President Xi Jinping and the central party in Beijing ordered their companies not to.

It’s not the only place where Jiang is trying to rile things up. His followers are also responsible for much of the antagonism going on in Hong Kong; it’s all meant to make Xi look bad so he’ll call off his “anti-corruption” campaign, which is a thinly-veiled manhunt meant to sniff out all of Jiang’s supporters in the Chinese Government.

BTW, Kim Jung Un killed his brother, and his Uncle, because both of them were apart of a plot being managed by the last Chinese President (Hu Jintao) to replace Kim Jung Un with the brother, and under his direction open North Korea up more in a China-like manner.

> Finally, in a show of extreme weakness the newly elected far Left president of SO. Korea has suspended his nation’s previously agreed to United States deployment of several THAD batteries (Missile-TO-Missile Defense System). Such a system…

Was not voted on by Koreans, and what’s more, Trump announced that they would be paying more for it than the prior government agreed to.

I think the missile system would be a good thing, but we shouldn’t be running roughshod over their democracy to force it upon them.

None of this second-guessing would be necessary, and Koreans themselves wouldn’t be so resistant, had we made the proposal a little more tactfully.

> the probable result being a civil war on the peninsula in which the barbarism of the north will win.

Why? The North Koreans have museum pieces for artillery, Soviet-era MiG with barely enough fuel to fly, and no patrol aircraft to go scout targets for their “navy” (ergo, they couldn’t even find an aircraft carrier task force if they wanted to fire, say, a missile at it). South Korea meanwhile has NATO-level tech across the board, and additionally, has the most expensive tank in the world that combines the German Leopold II with our M1 Abrams, and the most advanced tank suspension system ever devised.

In what world does the North win this fight, with starving soldiers, and massively antiquated equipment?

> The time to play fast-pitch hardball is right now!! IMHO.

I disagree; Geopolitics of this debate has to embrace realism here.

North Korea is taking its stance, because the regime watched what happened to Iraq, Libya, and the Ukraine, all of whom either lacked WMDs, or voluntarily gave them up, to the detriment of the regimes there.

They see having a nuke as the only way to guarantee their security, and it’s hard to argue that they’re wrong in that assumption.

Rather than trying to stop them from owning a nuke, we should just make an arms control treaty, the same way we did with the Russians and the Chinese. There’s no turning back the clock, and we are not going to invade a country with a nuke pointed at our ally. They know it, we know it, so a ban is no longer possible. That boat has long since sailed.

Instead, we need to negotiate around it, and find out what they actually want.


#6

Those “museum-piece” artillery guns and rocket launchers are pointed at Seoul. That doesn’t win them the fight, but it makes things ugly.

As to their MiGs, I don’t know how many, but they do have MiG-29s; they may be Soviet-era, but so are most of our F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s.

That said, I think hardball is a good option.


#7

Pure BS. The internal politics within China should be of no great moment to us. Results are what matter. The FACT is - Chinese nuclear technology/equipment has and is flowing to NOKO. You are intimating it can’t be stopped by the sitting government in China - BS!!

A treaty? You have to be kidding. Clinton/Carter had a treaty with NOKO over 20 years ago - the West was totally played by One Hung Low’s dad and NOKO has continued to play us. No treaty is possible - not one that means anything.

You ask, How does NOKO “win this thing”? True, they won’t defeat us, but a “win” for them might be taking out New York or Los Angeles.

We cannot just sit by and listen to them tell us they will destroy us and our allies and at the same time watch them develop and build the means to do just that. With them having nuclear capability the risk is too great.

There are only two options possible here. First, NOKO either decides to rid itself of nukes and missiles in a TOTALLY verifiable way or we flatten their country by all available/necessary means - including the use of nuclear weapons. The one thing that might get China off it’s ass here is the real/stated/believable threat of us blowing up NOKO with China flooded with millions of NOKO refugees.

This elimination of NOKO by way of “lighting them up” would be awful, messy and a terrible thing - almost as terrible as the US and her allies taking incoming nukes from NOKO.

Allow me to make this simple for you, AS - Let’s say you and your family are approached on the street by a man who has previously threatened you and who now has a gun and he tells you as soon as he loads the gun he’s going to shoot you. You have a loaded gun you can protect yourself and your family with. What would you do - wait for him to load his gun and hope he isn’t serious or shoot the SOB?


#8

Was not voted on by the Koreans? Sorry Charlie we have and I HAVE stood on that DMZ staring the little NoKo bastards in the eyes since the 50’s, if SoKo wants to not pay us or play some silly voting game then its time we came home…my guess is we have spent a Trillion or more over there propping them up so they could build a great economy while we stood in the way of Noko heading S.

Noko may have junk for a ground game, but they have a 5000 missile and will have a nuke tip on it soon. When you only have one hammer and its a big one then the rest of the tool box can be rusty but there are now a lot of broke laying around.

NoKo is not guaranteeing its security, if it were it would not be a threat to the WORLD!!!

An arms treaty: LOL, you making a joke, NoKo has never kept a treaty and neither has Iran. Treaty’s only work when both sides adhere and most treaty’s are no worth the paper they were wrote on. The UN was supposed to be the one who got involved when treaties went astray, but the UN which is corrupt from top to bottom has never accomplished anything and all their time is spent trying to tax the world and climate CONTROL.

The world is a hard rough place, I know I spent half my adult life out there its not for folks that can’t or won’t wear big boy pants, like Obama, Kerry, Biden, Schumer, the Klintons etc, they mostly got us into the mess we are in today.


#9

No, because that’s clearly what the regime is angling for. They want what China has, and to get that, they need what the armistice never gave them. Access to the broader world.

They don’t want to be the even-worse-off Cuba of Southeast Asia anymore. They want China-like success. They can see it, they can taste it, but they don’t have it because China has “most favored” status, while they’re simply blacklisted. They want a favorable peace, and they think having a nuke will get that for them.

> Clinton/Carter had a treaty with NOKO over 20 years ago

And they dragged their feet enforcing it, always delivering the aid that was promised later, and later… until Bush took over, and completely ignored both the aid, and nullified the memo stating that we promised them security.

That was when Jiang Zemin seized on Kim Jung Il to get his nuclear program out of moth balls, and continue his work. “Stop trying to play nice with Americans, they clearly aren’t interested; place nice with ME instead.

Jiang Zemin made use of the nuclear threat from North Korea to distract American attention away from Chinese human rights violations, as well as resist political attack from factions within the CCP.
— Don Tse, expert with China affairs website China Decoding

> You ask, How does NOKO “win this thing”? True, they won’t defeat us, but a “win” for them might be taking out New York or Los Angeles.

They don’t have a rocket capable of reaching us (hence why they’re testing boomer submarine designs on both their coasts).

But even if they did, their intention is to use a nuclear device to spread EMP; darken the upper atmosphere of our satellites, and possibly much of the country below. That’s what their tests indicate, that’s the real threat to us, if any.

Regardless, the Regime’s aim in having this, is MAD. They want a deterrent, they want to have certainty that they will be left alone, something they’re not sure their conventional arms still grant them. And a capability to hurt us, or Japan/RoK, is a far stronger certainty than an assurance from us “not to invade” that we may or may not uphold. We gave an assurance to Qaddafi after he gave up his WMD program. Notice we didn’t stick to it. Nor did we stop Russia in violating Ukraine borders after they gave up their nukes.

The Regime has noted these events, and is taking action to ensure its self-preservation.


#10

Not good enough, you don’t live there, your family isn’t under the gun, you don’t pay for further antagonizing the Norks. They do.

They are the people on the ground, they have the most to lose, therefore they should have the biggest say of what is done.

Autocratic BS from us is not acceptable. If we built them up as an independent nation, we should expect them to act as one. That’s what they’re doing. Mission ****** successful.

> NoKo is not guaranteeing its security,

Cold War disagrees. Pakistan and India disagrees. Experience shows having WMDs creates stability for the power who have them; lack of them can mean you end up like Qaddafi.

That’s the lesson the regime is looking to emulate. By having these weapons, they ensure neither we, nor the South invade, even if there’s a Libya-like rebellion. The very scenario the regime is scared will in fact happen in the near-future.


#11

As always with the far left they only quote out of context to try and shore up their failed approach.

What did I write? “Was not voted on by the Koreans? Sorry Charlie we have and I HAVE stood on that DMZ staring the little NoKo bastards in the eyes since the 50’s,** if SoKo wants to not pay us or play some silly voting game then its time we came home**…my guess is we have spent a Trillion or more over there propping them up so they could build a great economy while we stood in the way of Noko heading S.”

So after spending at least a $Trillion we OWE them something…SoKo has a govt that is turning far left, time for the US to get the hell out…And do not get me wrong, I loved the Korean people and the country and they loved us in return, today its different.


#12

Uh, check yourself, you just touted Wilsonian Doctrine here pal.

Wilsonian doctrine seeks to control countries in the very way you advocate, Realism meanwhile seeks to let countries exert their own interests; knowing that this is inevitable. A consequence of human nature, and geography intertwined.

And Realism, is what the Founders followed. I’ll being sticking with their school of thought, not Wilson’s, thank you.

> So after spending at least a $Trillion we OWE them something.

Yeah, leave them alone. Classical Republican values, which the United States military is founded upon, demands we do so.

We are not here to give orders. It is not our place to be Autocrats to other nations. If we do that, if we force nations with democracies into simply being our puppets, we are selling our own Republic up river, as well as theirs.


#13

That is EXACTLY what I advocate and let me assure you, we do not control the countries, we pay DEARLY to be there and keep on paying the entire time we are there with the sole mission of defending them…so about next Friday you stop by the Sheriffs office in town and ask for him to cut you a check for his office making your county safe over the past week…kinda stupid…ya think?

When I was stationed in Germany, we would go on maneuvers and it was common for the Germans to toss out and old chicken in front of a truck as we passed thru. That near dead and sometimes dead chicken was worth about $300 bucks and we stroked check after check. Most of the works on post are nationals and they get paid very well, we pay in most countries RENT to have our post there…to defend them. OK FINE that worked after WWII when the US had the ONLY economy in the world that survived the war, but by the 60’s we should have have begun to say its costing the US a LOT of coin to be here you need to pony up on this and by the end of the cold war we should have relooked our world wide footprint and our role as the defender, especially in countries we were propping up the economy and paying to defend them…


#14

As for SoKo and its tank, yes, its a reengineered M1 Abrams US tank along with several reengineered systems from German and other countries tanks. SO by cherry picking the best of the best they have built a tank and by all appearances it should be the worlds greatest…but reengineering does not always work out the way you hope or expect. And at $8.5M per copy I doubt they have many sitting on the lot. But most of all its a tank that at best has a shallow test profile and has never fired a rd in combat and funny things happen when push comes to shove on the fields of combat…

But if they want to go it alone then good on them…


#15

Then let South Koreans make the damn call.

The entire reason this became an issue is because we set up the missiles unilaterally and made them pay for it, without consulting the very people whose money we were taking.

No, a $Trillion investment in the past, does not make this okay. It is a bad practice to simply take & use taxpayer money like that, no matter what the intention was.

> When I was stationed in Germany, we would go on maneuvers and it was common for the Germans to toss out and old chicken in front of a truck as we passed thru. That near dead and sometimes dead chicken was worth about $300 bucks and we stroked check after check. Most of the works on post are nationals and they get paid very well, we pay in most countries RENT to have our post there…to defend them. OK FINE that worked after WWII when the US had the ONLY economy in the world that survived the war, but by the 60’s we should have have begun to say its costing the US a LOT of coin to be here you need to pony up on this and by the end of the cold war we should have relooked our world wide footprint and our role as the defender, especially in countries we were propping up the economy and paying to defend them…

Then bring the issue up! Give them the ultimatum: pay more for this, or we’ll leave, but do not just take their money! That should be frickin’ obvious!


#16

True! I was with the G-2/G-3 Section if the 1st Cav Division while there and frequently manned the TOC (Tactical Operations Center) over night. I took and recorded reports from our observation posts along the DMZ. The DMZ is 2000 meters wide and extends all the way across the peninsula roughly along the 38th Parallel. IT is divided in the center by the MDL (Military Demarcation Line) which is roughly 3 meters wide and marked by a single strand of barbed wire along both sides. The Armistice Agreement of 1953 laid out some “rules” to be followed by both sides. For example: The 1000 meters of the DMZ controlled by each side was supposed to be left untouched as of 12 midnight on a date certain. Any equipment left inside after that date certain MUST remain there. On the UN side, you can see .50 caliber machine guns on tripods, rusting away. Secondly, the OPs (observation posts) had to be out in the open so they could be seen by the other side. The UNs OPs are–the North Koreans’ are heavily camouflaged and hard to spot. Additionally, the NK side cleared their 1000 meters of the DMZ and are actually cultivating much of it. Thirdly, NO military equipment, such as tanks, artillery, etc., is permitted inside the DMZ…a restriction that the NK side routinely violates. In fact, when I was there, in the preceding 10 years, we’d recorded over 6,000 violations of the armistice agreement by the North. They admitted to NONE. NK accused the UN side of over 3,000 violations…we admitted to less than 500 in those 10 years and took immediate action to rectify them. My point is that NO “agreement”, written or otherwise, will deter the NKs from doing whatever they want to do. If you catch them violating the terms, they simply deny that it ever happened. Sort of like Democrats.


#17

Nonsense, AS. Quadaffi didn’t get killed and his regime overthrown by the US OR because he’d given up his nuclear ambitions. He got overthrown and killed because the Jihadis wanted control of his country and that moron in the White House, Mr. Obama, agreed to HELP them.


#18

The rebels would not have won without Western interference, that is the simple fact of the matter.

It was interference Qaddafi was promised by the West to never see by virtue of not developing WMDs. We broke that assurance; it doesn’t matter which President it was. North Korea sees we are willing to break a security assurance, if we think the situation on the ground gives us leeway to do so.

Thus, the North Korea Regime thinks having a WMD would force us to avoid doing anything similar for a rebel group in their own country, and they’re right to think that. It’s just about the only thing that could stop us.


#19

Will guess you were at Division HQ, where was that at that time>


#20

Camp Howze…about 20 miles south of Munsan ni and the Imjin River. I did get the opportunity to go up and visit the DMZ on several occasions–including watching the MAC meetings at Panmunjom. I also was allowed to walk MDL patrol with the 9th Cav. Had an interesting experience there. I’d been in Korea at G2/G3 for a bit over a year when I went up there. We were instructed to remove all ID from our uniforms…including rank insignia and name tags. About half-way through the patrol, we were met by an NK patrol going in the opposite direction. I was about 6th back from the front of our column. When the leader of the NK patrol passed me, he said, “How’re things Specialist J…d?” I was dumbfounded, to say the least. He spoke in perfect, accent-free English, too. I later found out that ALL of the NK troops assigned to the DMZ duty are, in fact, intel specialists.