Obamacare 2.0


Is there really a difference between Obamacare and Obamacare 2.0?

Tax credits instead of, ummm, tax credits? Individual mandate gone? Pre-existing conditions still in? How will we pay for this?

What should we do with health insurance – err can’t call it insurance anymore – healthcare services? What do you think Congress will come up with in the end?


Also, Nancy Pelosi said, “The American people and Members have a right to know the full impact of this legislation before any vote in Committee or by the whole House.”



To parody the Ben Carson quote, if you flush the toilet, what do you replace its contents with?


If the Mandate dies and the content of the insurance policies is no longer defined by government and the restrictions from selling across State lines is removed, most of what made RobertsCare such a practical disaster will have been mitigated.

That does little more than return us to where we were before so not a victory for those of us who want the Market fully empowered to do it’s thing but a big improvement in the short term.

The retention of the pre existing clause will mean that government will expand it’s burden to buy these “Post sickness” policies which will further burden an already bankrupt Medicaid/Medicare structure, this is not good news for the debt or the Marketplace but considering the spineless GOP Congress who must be part of this process it is at least a good start.

I have been saying for years that all we really need is for ONE government Bureaucracy/Agency/Entitlement to be eradicated for the defeated mindset that says "Once these things happen they NEVER go away" to be erased from the American psyche; opening this floodgate even a little is all we need to start the momentum going the other way.

I will take it for now and keep the pedal to the floor going forward :slight_smile:

I almost forgot what it was like to discuss things of substance, this place must endure…


Its maddening. just get rid of the individual mandate and the program will collapse on its own. It is obvious that the program cannot sustain itself and is paid for by those who do not wish to pay for it.

Yeah funny how that works. She probably still doesn’t know whats in ACA.


I hope you’re right because this looks like a disaster waiting to unfold, and it would be nice to see someone besides Democrats act like they actually won for once, although I don’t want to see this administration get its way on trade. Would be nice to see capitalist Republicans stand up against that garbage.

That’s why I thought this was always a stepping stone to nationalized healthcare: “See, capitalism just won’t work. Look how it just keeps getting more expensive, and we can’t cover all the losses in the too-big-to-fail free market. It’s basically an emergency now. We have to nationalize this system.”

And welcome back to both of you!


Rand Paul,might have a better idea:

Rand Paul Introduces His Own Obamacare Replacement Plan – Read All 4 Pages Here!

March 9,2017

Robert Zerfing


U.S. Senator and physician Rand Paul introduced S. 222, the Obamacare Replacement Act, to provide Congress with a health care plan grounded in broadly supported conservative reforms that is ready for an immediate vote after Obamacare is repealed. Dr. Rand Paul’s proposal would expand access to higher-quality, lower-cost health care for more Americans, regardless of medical history.

“*Getting government out of the American people’s way and putting them back in charge of their own health care decisions will deliver a strong, efficient system that doesn’t force them to empty out their pockets to cover their medical bills,” said Dr. Rand Paul. “There is no excuse for waiting to craft an alternative until after we repeal Obamacare, and the Obamacare Replacement Act charts a new path forward that will insure the most people possible at the lowest price*.”

The Obamacare Replacement Act empowers the American people to: 1.) Choose inexpensive insurance free of government dictates; 2.) Save unlimited amounts in a health savings account (HSA) and have wider options for using those funds; 3.) Buy insurance across state lines; and 4.) Join together in voluntary associations to gain the leverage of being part of a large insurance pool.



I wasn’t all that big a fan of Rand Paul during the primaries, but this plan of his seems to me to be the very BEST of the lot. MY preference? Cancel ALL of Obamacare immediately and institute Paul’s plan immediately afterwards.


No country has ever been able to provide universal healthcare without either going broke and or all but eliminating their military and or degrading services to the point that those with money go elsewhere such as the US for services.

Just look at Europe: Universal healthcare in almost all countries. They did it on the back of and it was paid for by the American taxpayer. We bailed out their butts after WWII, rebuilt their countries then sent out soldiers over to defend against the Rusky’s. When a country no longer has to depend soley upon itself for defense then suddenly there is a bucket of money to be spent and Europe spent it on social programs and free healthcare. And even with all that money from not having to field a global military footprint they are going BROKE supporting healthcare.

In order to have free healthcare we must give up something, simple as that.

Medicaid costs not exceed the cost of Medicare. I am on Medicare, having paid in all my life and I still have to pay in, Medicaid on the other hand is FREE, and no one has ever paid a dime into.

There are approx 93-97 Million Americans the live on Govt benefits, who do not work, yet live free.

Then there is the medical community paradigm which is based upon TREATMENT, not prevention. The so called poor, who are of the 93+ million who live for free in America are racked with health issues, Diabetes, smoking, Obesity which are all based upon LIFESTYLE choices. The cost to support them medically over their lifetime will break out bank.

If you want to see the future of healthcare in America then look at the full govt run VA system. While the VA states that every veteran can and will see a VA Doc within 30 days of requesting an appointment, in fact that its not just untrue, its a LIE. My diabetes eye exam is scheduled for May 22nd…only a few months off you say, well I requested the appt 3 years ago!

Then there is the little problem (little may be the understatement of the year) of acceptance of pre-existing conditions…won’t work! Why BUY insurance if all I have to is walk in the door of a Docs office and it time for the operation, so I bought insurance yesterday. I just spent 24 hrs in a hospital. I had an operation that lasted 1 ½ hr, overnight stay, 3 meals…$48,000!

Finally, once given it becomes and entitlement in the eyes of many, especially those who live off the taxpayer dole and with them being almost 100 Million strong they are not far from taking the country down.

Don’t get me wrong, not throwing rocks at Rand Paul, but what I am saying is there are some landmines that if not dealt with, will bring collapse of ANY healthcare bill tendered. The GOP and the Dims really need to answer this questions and solve the issues. I personally do not support Universal healthcare. I worked hard all my life to provide an income and benefits for me and my family in our retirement years, but its seems it was for naught as it now a lifetime entitlement for which 100M did not have to pay in a single dime to get.


This is the key issue. It’s why Obamacare required the individual mandate to function. Simply stripping that requirement but maintaining the pre-existing conditions component supported by some 87 percent of Americans is an even bigger disaster. And the individual mandate was insufficient. I think an officially socialized system will be insufficient as well just as a practical matter. We cannot escape the laws of economics no matter what a politician or the public thinks.


We basically had the pre existing conditions coverage all along, when someone got sick with an expensive disease and had no insurance or means to pay the hospitals and doctors helped them file for government help via medicaid and all the charitable options as well. Obamacare made this worse by attempting to spread the cost of this through private insurance companies which made the cost of viable coverage for everyone so much more expensive that many people had to drop their plans altogether. It also changed the burden because the subsidized class now use their “free coverage” continually instead of the old system of emergencies.

So the working class paid fines for not having coverage+ paid out of pocket for their medical needs while the subsidized class gained “free Healthcare”, nobody ever mentions the former getting screwed but the latter are in every news story.

Saying that “20 million people got coverage under Obamacare” is like the gambler only talking about the bets he placed that won, it sounds okay until you factor in ALL the truth.


Since NO ONE in Congress uses the VA then they cannot address the problems nor can they fix it. The VA broken and any govt healthcare will broken if based upon the same model, which is what Obama wanted, VA for everyone.

That said I can fix the VA, in fact fixing is simple, fast and gives better results for all. The FIX:

The VA becomes the worlds center of excellence for post combat trauma support, be it mental or physical. If injured in a combat zone it becomes a go to. (FYI, injuries in combat zones due to enemy fire are the least of the injuries). Injury as a direct action of enemy fire or as the restult of FEBA (Forward Edge of Battlefield) operations is CAT 1-1. Injuries that occur in a combat zone (country) not as a result of enemy action (Soldier slips on wet floor at NCO club and breaks leg) is a CAT 1-2

All this does is establish where you stand in line for treatment: The guy with bullet holes goes to the head of the line, simple as that.

So all the folks the got their foot hurt at BumChuck Texas they become CAT 2, which makes them eligible for medical insurance based upon the amount of disability they have. Your monthly payment is $100 and you are rated 50% disabled by the VA, you pay 50% of the premium and the VA picks up the rest of the tab. You see a civilian doctor, not the VA. You are a CAT 2-5 or Civilian medical care, 50% disabled.

This takes the burden off the VA to treat non combat injuries in house and since VA is often not local to where you live now you can go see a local Doc.


Fix? Unfortunately, no one supports capitalism any more; but that’s the fix. No subsidy. No tax credit. No anything. No mandate to care for anyone. No FDA. No agency telling insurance companies who they must insure. As RET points out, we’ve had coverage for pre-existing conditions for a long time. And as with so many things, the solution for the inevitable high costs imposed by socialism is more socialism. But this isn’t a debate our mainstream politicians are having. They’re just arguing about precisely how to arrange their socialist policies.


Is it Socialism if it is a perk earned via work/employment?

If the goal of Socialism is to use public policy to equalize the material outcomes of everyone’s lives regardless of the effort and aptitude that individuals invest in their individual lives while simultaneously establishing the government ahead of the Market in the economic power seat to achieve this goal; then I don’t think the VA qualifies.

A Nation requires soldiers to maintain its sovereignty, a free Nation requires that those soldiers be volunteers in most circumstances; that means the government is entering into a contract with each soldier regarding what they will be paid for the service and risks that they take while on active duty.

Since the pay is ridiculously low considering the risk and time commitment, the government relies on those who are motivated by Patriotic aspirations to perform these duties; including lifetime healthcare as a perk to help mitigate the generally low pay of the job is just another employer/employee contract point (And one which I fully support).

It is a given that it will be poorly managed and cost more than a Market based system that is regulated by the Individual consumers at every level because everything the government does is managed poorly, that is the nature of the beast and nothing will change that nature. But it is a reality that Nations require a defense and a defense sufficient to repel all enemies foreign and domestic cannot be trusted to any private entity; not because a private enemy would not be competent to do this job better than the government but because of the risks associated to the Nation that hires them to build such a force that would be controlled apart from the elected Representatives of the people.

And yes I know that many in Libertarian circles think that the military could be safely privatized, they are wrong.

So a free people choose to be content with the stellar performance of our government owned and managed military in spite of knowing that there is and always will be blatant economic waste and managerial corruptions that are common to all things that the government does; our Founders knew this was something that had to be tolerated in order for the Nation to endure.

So as far as the “fix” is concerned with the VA, I think 17Oaks plan of incorporating as much of the private sector medical facilities as possible while retaining the insurance coverage from the government to handle payment is about as good as it can be, I fully support the “perk” for our soldiers because I think they have earned it; but the inefficiency inherent in the way the government handles this perk does not make the contract with the soldiers to provide this a “Socialist” offering.


My comment does not consider the VA one way or the other. Compensation is compensation. I am not an anarchist. I believe the state is necessary (and inevitable for the same reasons it requires a military to function properly) and those employed by the state should be compensated.

But the VA’s failure to function well is certainly a symptom of its socialist structure.

Socialism: The means of production are owned or controlled by the public (the state).

> A Nation requires soldiers to maintain its sovereignty
A proper nation requires soldiers to protect its sovereignty, I suppose, but I hope you agree that sovereignty and the nation only matters for this reason: "To secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men."


If we don’t start the process of getting Obama Care or its collapse under control we are going end up with “single payer” which is the Democratic euphemism for socialized government run medicine. You can complain all you want about how the current bill is “Obama Care Light,” but the fact is the alternative is worse.

If we only repeal Obama care and don’t replace it with anything, the Democrat controled news media going to say that the Republicans killed thousands of people. Every night Democrat Evening News will lead off with a series of stories about how people who were getting medical care have died because of the Republicans. This is the disaster that could turn the 2018 midterms, which should be good for us.

Stay the course and get something passed. Fixing this is going to be an incremental process.

I remember back during the Bush 43 administration when CBS News “celebrated” the death of the 3,000th serviceman in Iraq. They almost bouncing off the walls with joy. The grins were on the anchor person’s face. This is the way they work.


I have been in the VA system since I got back from Vietnam. The issue it faces is that some years ago Congress opened up the VA for ALL veterans, originally it was injured vets. What does this mean? This means a vet with both legs missing is in line with a guy who never spent a day in a combat zone and he is down at the VA to get some Rolaides for his upset stomach this morning. And while the guy with no legs has head of line status the fact is reality is he is just in line with everyone else.

How broken is it? In 1999 I was diagnosed with Type 2 Agent Orange induced Diabetes. They ordered special shoes for me…it took 13 years before I got them and this was after the order was repeated ever year, in Dallas, Phoenix and San Antonio VA’s. My annual diabetes eye exam I should have every year, that I have not had in 3 years, is finally coming up, in MAY!

FYI: I only go to the VA for things that are a direct result of combat, everything else I go to the private sector, I buy my Rolaids at Wal Mart.


You will just have the VA system nationwide. BUT WAIT it gets worse!

As I posted earlier, Vets rated 100% disabled go to the head of the line…or do they? Well yes and no. They go to the head of the disabled vets line, but there is a line in front of that line and (if you are up on current stuff) I will give you 3 guesses as to who is at the head of the line and the first 2 guesses don’t count. Number 1 priority goes to Bob now Barbie or Barbie now Bob wannabe’s…

In my extensive travels in the US over the timesframe of '85 - '99 ( I hit ever state in the US and racked up over 2 M air miles (incl foreign travel), this was not vaca, but job related ). Military overall is welcomed like getting wart on the end of your nose. Its not as vocal as it was back in the 60’s, and there a few (younger) folks that will thank you for your service. There are places one can go and be met with open arms such as here in S Tx San Antonio area, where having my meal paid for is not rare and salutes and hugs come often if you wear a cap that says something military or Veteran. But I wouldn’t wear a cap like that in many parts of the US.


Surrender is not an increment. It’s not Obamacare Light. It’s Obamacare rearranged without the unpopular individual mandate. It’s still going to break the bank for the same reasons Obamacare is going to break the bank. It’s an absurd concept and when it implodes will stand in just as well for Obamacare as Democrats point to its inevitable “market failure” as justification for their European style nationalized healthcare system.

Furthermore, we should speak up against bad legislation and bad policy. It’s a difficult position for Republican politicians, but it is a bed of their own making. They’ve been caving into Democrats for years – even when they actually have control over the government. Honestly, I don’t think they just cave. I think they agree with the Democrats and have just spent a lot of years lying to us. The current vice president no longer believes in capitalism and free markets: “The free market has been sorting it out, and America’s been losing. Every time. Every time.”

That’s not my fault or my problem. I’ll continue to speak up against bad policy, bad legislation and bad government, like Republican politicians ought to be doing.


If the concern is “what the Liberal media will say” then we have learned nothing, nobody cares what they say because they have thoroughly established themselves as liars and hacks.

If the GOP turd has all the devastating elements as Obamacare it will fail spectacularly, THEN the Democrats will say that Obamacare was fine but the GOP tossed it out to pass the turd that crashed and burned.

Letting the Left off the hook entirely.

There is nothing to win and everything to lose in passing a bad replacement for Obamacare, whatever is done must utilize Market principles or it will fail and the GOP will find itself exactly where the Democrats were in 2010, careening down a slope paved with a thousand lost seats nationwide. If they do nothing they will be blamed for breaking their promise to repeal Obamacare, the GOP has painted themselves into a corner where the only viable exit is to do the right thing.

Which is good for us, it takes a lot of motivation to get the GOP to do anything good with the power they are given.