Proteins argue against evolution


#181

Someone mentioned this to me Thursday night so I searched and found a different article about it. Fascinating. But there’s no mention of how this advances the notion that life came about from non-life by natural processes.

This Hachimoji DNA was invented in the lab. That is, it was designed by an intelligent agent, just like our own DNA.

There are a lot more details I’d like to know about. Have they attempted to design a compatible polymerase enzyme that can replicate it? I will be very surprised if they succeed at that. Or similarly, have they made any progress toward a matching ribosome that could synthesize proteins? And would its genetic code support our existing proteins? Or new proteins with more amino acids?

I assume these four new nucleotides have an identical sugar and phosphate backbone that our own nucleotides have, but that’s another question.

So much cool stuff to be invented and understood!

That’s totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. But I join you in your excitement and awe at the possibility.

It’s also interesting that they fully acknowledged the information content of DNA is actually information. That fact makes a lot of evolutionists squeamish.


#182

Would it surprise you to learn that Gilgamesh also descended from Noah? And that he lived long before the author of Genesis?

I often wonder what books and information Noah and family brought with them on the ark. There’s no mention of it in scripture, but surely they would have brought a huge library since they knew that everything they didn’t bring was going to be destroyed.

And were those books written in what we now know as Sumerian cuneiform? Did Noah count in a base-60 number system? Did Adam invent it? Was is it given to Adam by the Lord God himself? And what technologies had Noah learned or invented in his 600 years of life before the flood? So many questions!

So were there similarities between what Gilgamesh wrote and what Moses wrote? There had better be. They were writing about the same events. Of course they were muddled some through time, though Moses had the advantage of inspiration by God. I do wonder though how long Noah’s library lasted before it deteriorated or was lost or destroyed. Did any of it last until Moses?

BTW, wikipedia is a very convenient source of information on very many topics, and it’s probably overall very accurate. But anything that is connected to evolution, origins and the Bible has to be taken with a grain of salt. It’s very distorted in favor of the atheist religious world view. I love wikipedia’s articles on nucleotides, amino acids, the genetic code and the like, even with the occasional errant mention of evolution.


#183

And yet, the Bible makes NO MENTION of Cain’s wife–other than that he “knew” her and she lived in the Land of Nod.


#184

Genesis 5;4

And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:


#185

Seth was born AFTER Cain was cast out of Adam’s family–and so were the other “sons and daughters” that he and Eve produced.


#186

The books Chronologically go beyond his own death. He literally couldn’t have written about that, because he wasn’t there.

The writing style is also different between them.

Equally, even if you want to say he wrote it, he didn’t originate everything.

The Epic Gilgamesh tablet we have is over 1,000 years older than the very language the Bible is written in.

It’s way older. It’s older than the Hebrews as a people.

The Paleo diet (tied to your ancestry) works. Epigenetics for medical treatment works. CRISPR works.

These things wouldn’t work, if evolution wasn’t true. CRISPR wouldn’t exist if evolution wasn’t true.

Also, DNA evidence wouldn’t work. We trace ancestry to Hominids the same way we trace a corpse of a long lost soldier from the Civil War back to his still-living family.

There’s no difference in the technique.


#187

Ken, we have lineage data. There are Native American populations who have been living in S. America for more than 10,000 years.

Unless you’re saying the Story of Noah omitted the existence of other survivors, or that what happened occurred way earlier than anyone thought, it wasn’t a global flood. Which the geological record reflects.

If people can mix up details, they can also mix up scale.


#188

What kind of data? Are there books that people have been keeping for 10,000 years? Is there any book, tablet or man-made artifact anywhere on earth that is more than 5000 years old? If there is, I haven’t found it by googling. Please share.


#189

Yes, the oldest human structure is 10-12,000 years old. Göbekli Tepe.

But what I’m referring to is haplogroups; there’s a counter built into DNA for how many generations there have been.

DNA itself is a track record, and there’s way too many generations to fit into just 3-5,000 years.
Not to mention we find human corpses in S. America that are this old, and we can link their DNA to modern-day survivors.


#190

There are human-made artifacts much older than 5,000 years, Ken. Folsom points, cave drawings, etc. Of course, Biblical purists claim that Carbon 14 dating methods are flawed, so I suppose telling you that wouldn’t make a dent.


#191

Carbon 14 dating works great, as long as the assumptions are true. The main assumption is that the earth has been in a stable steady state for eons.

But the flood thoroughly screwed that up. It knocked down literally every plant and tree on earth, which affected both the production of oxygen and the absorption of CO2. And it very likely blew a lot of atmosphere out into space. And if by chance the aqueous ringwoodite in the upper mantle was the source of the water, it released a lot of new oxygen (which would be needed to maintain the partial pressure if the air pressure is now lower).

So if you don’t know about or reject the fact of the world-wide flood, you’re starting with errors and will get the wrong answer.

It’s my understanding that carbon 14 dating has been calibrated against a few artifacts known to be around 2000 years old. That’s very good. But that’s long after the flood.

Also, the whole process of dating is just very darn difficult. If archaeologists find a dateable and non-dateable artifact together, how can you ever be certain that one isn’t thousands of years older than the other? Or that a dateable object wasn’t made from ancient wood?

And then there’s the age of the earth. I think it’s old, but I’m no longer certain. If it should turn out to be only a few thousand years old, the atmosphere hasn’t had enough time to reach steady state even without the flood.


#192

None of this effects the decay rate of carbon-14.

You’re being vague, when we have specific answers Ken. It’s called the Marine reservoir effect.

It alters readings by about 4-500 radiocarbon years, as there’s a delay of that long for carbon in the atmosphere to filter down into the oceans.

But that’s only a error for objects that sit in the ocean. Something submerged it in for only a few weeks? It has no effect, partly because it gets re-exposed to the very atmosphere where the carbon-14 we test for is.

Even if this error did somehow apply, it’d be too small to matter, and when talking about objects 1,000s years old, even an object at the bottom of the ocean, with that full 500 year error, would be trivial.

What’s more, we have other ways of dating:

  • measuring other radiometric half-life decays such as U235 to Pb207 or U238 to U234

  • relative dating of geologic stratigraphy

  • Optically stimulated luminescence dating

None of this backs the flood myth narrative.

But then again, that may depend on the version you’re looking at.

An earlier version of what we have, Atra-Hasis, doesn’t state that this was a worldwide flood. It offers lines showing that this was a river-flood. The Epic of Gilgamesh changed lines that invoked the oceans/seas, and it seems the Biblical narrative continues the alteration.

Atrahasis III iv, lines 6–7: “Like dragonflies they have filled the river

Gilgamesh XI line 123 to: “Like the spawn of fishes, they fill the sea.


#193

Don’t be silly. No one has proposed any change to the nature of carbon. From your own reference:

The basis of radiocarbon dating includes the assumption that there is a
constant level of carbon 14 in the atmosphere and therefore in all living
organisms through equilibrium.
...
It is also assumed that there is equilibrium between carbon 14 formation
and its decay, thus there is a constant level of carbon 14 in the atmosphere
at any given time in the past up to the present.

The assumptions, however, do not paint the real picture. There are several
factors that need to be considered because they affect the global
concentration of carbon 14 and therefore that of any given sample for
radiocarbon dating.

The things that I described about the flood most definitely affected the equilibrium and the amount of carbon 14 in the atmosphere. Sorry for the vagueness, but we don’t even know for sure what the mechanisms were. We can’t have specific answers. But the assumption that there was an equilibrium before and throughout the flood is clearly wrong.


#194

That position has several problems. First, If it effects everything, then everything has the error built in.

Which means when we make comparisons, the relative ages still show up. The error can’t hide that.

Additionally, you have another problem for even suggesting this: there’s no evidence of it in our geology.
Something that cataclysmic would show up.

We can find evidence of rainstorms that went on for millions of years that happened eons ago; a flood powerful enough to flood the whole Earth (there isn’t enough water on our planet to do that btw) only 5,000 years ago would be plain as day.

As to pushing out the atmosphere in the first place… I can find no rational reason to assume this.
Unless you’re suggesting that the flood was caused by Asteroid impacts ( a pretty big detail for the flood myths to leave out), there’s no force involved to cause ejections.

And finally; none of this changes the results we see in other dating techniques, and they back what we see in Carbon-14 dating.


#195

It’s pretty simple, really. The Yucatan astroid strike could EASILY have created a MASSIVE tidal wave that circumvented the planet and caused it to rain for VERY long periods of time, too.


#196

That was 66 million years ago.


#197

Very good point. Also, the historical record says all the mountains of the earth were covered. No asteroid could do that.

Note that when the water pushed down on the crust, mountains were pushed up, so the mountains weren’t as high then as they are now. (There’s a geological term for this, which I forget–iso- something.)

Yeah, relative ages would remain intact. I don’t see the issue though.

Are you talking about the flood? I was talking about proteins. But the sandstone layers that span continents show up. Also, the fossils all over the world are in fact eloquent testimony to the flood.

Evolutionists like to claim they prove evolution, but if evolution had happened, we would see a continuous gradient of change, not the distinct, well-designed species that we see, some of which are exactly the same as species alive today.

But it’s proteins that speak most loudly and clearly that life was designed.


#198

Again, no evidence.

You can’t just postulate a theory, you have to explain why geology doesn’t show this.

Meaning we know that the 12,000 year old temple I told you about, is in fact 6,000 years older than Stonehenge.

Or that Chinese Civilizations which existed 5,000 years ago, continued.

There’s no flood stratum. We can see this for floods that happened only a few decades ago, we can date Outburst floods 10s of 1,000s of years ago.

There is none for a flood 5,000 years ago that covered the whole world. That’s a major inconsistency.


#199

Geologists agree. It’s not my theory. Isostasy is the word I couldn’t remember. Wikipedia doesn’t directly address the addition of a huge amount of water to the oceans, but water has weight, so the principle applies.

Isostasy is the state of gravitational equilibrium between Earth's crust and
mantle such that the crust "floats" at an elevation that depends on its
thickness and density.

There are many conflicting claims about all kinds of things. Once you get past a few thousand years, what are you dating? The stone from which it’s built?

I’ve seen articles and videos about that. It’s all stone, isn’t it? The stones no-doubt predate man. I’ve often wondered if it and Peru’s polygonal megalithic stone structures were built before the flood.

I think the fist couple were created a little over 6500 years ago. We’re probably less than 300 generations removed from them, accumulating damaging mutations in every generation. Researchers expect to see thousands of years of evolution, so they see it. (There’s even a scientific term for that–confirmation bias.) And they wouldn’t get their papers published if they said they only saw only 300 generations.

That date is rough, as is the date for the Sumerians. Just the other day I watched a video of a secular historian complaining that the Sumerians seemed to pop into existence with everything that an advanced civilization has, which made no sense to him. But it makes perfect sense if Noah and family brought loads of books and taught all their decedents about civilization.

China branched off from there, also bringing their civilization training with them.

Have you ever heard of the “geologic column”? Geologists reject the flood before they start thinking, so of course they don’t recognize it as evidence of the flood.

But you’re still stuck on the geology and the flood. You’re probably doing that to run away from the very strongest evidence–proteins.


#200

Geologists aren’t posing this theory as something that happened 5,000 years ago, instantly. This a thing that happens over the course of millions of year (and is on-going, hence why the Himalayas keep getting taller), and geological formations which flip vertically over the course of time tell us that. So too does the decay rate of rocks we find in the layers.

The clincher here Ken, where’s the evidence? You aren’t giving me any, you’re just piling on more theory that you’re misapplying.

At some point you have to offer evidence.

People can offer 1,000s of reasonably-sounding theories, but by law of averages, most are going to be wrong. You need evidence to sort wheat from the chaff.

? There’s no conflict here for you to appeal to. The range is 10-12,000 years.

If you can offer an evidenced-based objection to why it can’t be that old, I’m all ears.

I’m talking about suggesting Human restarted from just two people 5,000 years ago.

We can trace universal ancestors, and we can trace the movement of haplogroups.

If a haplogroup arrived in America 10,000 years ago, and is still here, it means you’ve overlooked something.

Something to consider: The Epic of Gilgamesh includes other people surviving. If the narratives are shifting details, no reason this can’t be one of them.