[Jack note: I added some Edit additional comments below.]
I thought I’d make a few observations and ask a few questions in an effort to stimulate a discussion.
When you say “true liberalism” I understand you to mean Classical Liberalism as contrasted with Statist Liberalism. Statist Liberalism is defined as those on the left that would use the power of the state to force their secular agenda on those that do not want it?
I understand you to hold that true Classical Liberalism would not use state power for that purpose, and that when it does do that, it means it has ceased to be genuine Classical Liberalism and has crossed over into Statist Liberalism?
I also understand you to be saying that “Live And Let Live” is one essential element within Classical Liberalism?
If I am correct in all of that, then you recogonize two seperate distinct camps in America:
(1) Classical Liberals (Who want to “Live And Let Live”)
(2) Statist Liberals (Who want to use State political power to force their leftish agenda upon Conservatives.)
I assume you would agree that the true Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberals do NOT now exist in substantual numbers in the House and Senate, and most certainly not in the ranks of the American left’s political activism groups?
(Btw, I did take note of your point in another thread that “Moral arrogance was no skin off anyone’s back as long as it did not translate into state power.”)
One could conclude from the bolded/sized words that your view is that “modern liberalism” is really a collection of backslidden Classical Liberals who ought to know better?
If so, that raises an interesting question: Can the American Left be re-taught to “Live And Let Live”?
(/grin … I hold: “No, not likely!”)
I understand you to be saying that when Social Conservatives enter the public square and preach against (your phrase was “object to”) the left’s secular values state-enforced agenda, then Social Conservatives are operating on strong legitimate grounds. You mentioned the example of the Amish, perhaps you could mention other examples where you think the American Statist Liberals overstep?..I’m trying to get a discussion going, more examples might help … /grin.
I understand you to be emphasing that both the left and right are engaged in a battle to get control of the state to use state power to force their social/political will on each other?
You mean Classical Liberalism with it’s heavy emphasis on “Live And Let Live.” IE the “Live And Let Live” element is what would be the ally of Social Conservatives?
Again, you mean Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberalism? You do not mean the Huffpo and Democratic Underground type of liberalism? For example, you would not classify Chris Matthews as a Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberal?
You would not hold that MSNBC was an example of Classical Liberalism?
(Remember, I’m just trying to get a discussion going here … /grin)
You want both Powerful Religion and Powerful Secularism to “Live And Let Live”?
That word “liberalism” is a red flag to we Conservatives, again I understand you to be saying: The solution is Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberalism. Morality is none of the state’s business, religion is none of the state’s business?
Also, when you say, “Morality is none of the state’s business”, Conservative are going to quickly point out that all the state’s laws are based on somebody’s morality.
** Your phrase “leave each other alone” is a very accurate rephrasing of “Live And Let Live.” **
It is clear that, with regard to using the State as their weapon of choice, you want the American Left and the American Right to “leave each other alone” aka “Live And Let Live.”
Exactly! Secular rationality sure is easy and accommodating:
I just finished a thread here at RO where I could not even get a blanket moral condemnation of the very existence of the porn industry based upon the fact that they make a lot of films that simulate female rape and female torture for the entertainment of male sexual perverts that like to mentally experience the rape and torture of females, and this refusal came from inhabitants that claim to have a special love for “women’s rights” and “women’s issues.” Hypocrites one and all!
The present American electorate for certain will not vote to live under the Christian moral code in a Christian state.
Of course you mean the Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberal state is the one in which you would say the Christian finds his liberty. ** But the problem we Christian Social Conservatives are going to have with this is that the Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberal state does not yet exist in America. **
Based on your complaints about Statist Liberals up-post, you’d probably agree with what I just said, or at least with the idea that the present state of affairs in Washington is seriously imperfect with regard to “Live And Let Live.”
I don’t speak for Christian Social Conservatives, nonetheless I believe most of them would agree that we do not actually see “Live And Let Live” practiced by the American Left here in America (or in Europe either) in the areas that seem to be the 4 hot spots of the Left’s political activism:
(1) the public schools
(2) the workplace
(3) the public square
(4) the activists judges and their activist courts
The above is a clear statement of your view of Statist Liberals. You say that Statist Liberals are not true liberals IE you mean they are not Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberals.
I understand your firm position is: The only true liberal is a Classical Liberal IE a Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberal.
( /grin … The precise phrases Statist Liberals and Classical Liberals will be crystal clear communication to Conservatives.)
In reply to that, I would say the goal of turning present day Statist Liberals into Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberals, for example in America’s public schools, is going to be a gigantic undertaking that will take a very long time.
Meanwhile, I believe 99% of Christian Social Conservatives are convinced that America’s public schools teach the liberal social values and social agenda. “Heather Has Two Mommies” Xs hundreds of other instances. Or put another way, the Statist Liberals that run America’s public schools are not actually leaving we Christians alone to raise our children according to our Christian values. This 21st century American non-Classical Liberal government forces we Christians to pay taxes to support the very public school systems that teach, against our will, the liberal social and moral code to our children.
This is NOT “Live And Let Live.”
Imo, this (1) public school situation and many other situations in the areas of (2) the work place, (3) the public square, and (4) the activists courts are going to have to become actually and factually “Live And Let Live” before we Christian Social Conservatives are going to pay any serious attention to the “Live And Let Live Philosophy”, which at this point is not a reality in America, rather its a hope and a dream of a very few people.
How does the Classical Liberal Political Party do in America’s national elections? /Big Grin
I’d agree its doomed to failure in this present time.
I would sure agree that the notion of the 21st c. American electorate, in it’s present state of “wisdom”, coming together and agreeing on issues like abortion and so-called gay marriage is not going to happen anytime soon. That notion is right out of Alice In Wonderland.
Moreover, its absurd to believe the 21st c. American secular state can codify the Judeo-Christian social moral code and then enforce it upon 300 million Americans! Tens of millions of whom are fornicating like rabbits, and committing adultry like it was no more than shaking hands, and boozing and whoring it up in Sin City, and divorcing like animals in the wild, and with serial “marriages” an on-going thing, and gobbling up porn on a huge scale? I recently read that tens of millions of women are now watching porn regularly with their husbands and boyfriends. All that, and such as that, is against the Christian moral code and if all that, and such as that, were codified it would take a police state applying sustained and increasing brutality to enforce it, and imo if those violations were processed through due process, it would totally and hopelessly clog the courts and thereby end up literally destroying the entire American judicial system.
The American secular state is having a hard enough time processing all the murderers, rapists, big time armed robbers, and white collar $$$ criminals and actually keeping them in jail.
Liberty! You said “liberty” and liberty means Live And Let Live.
I fervently wish that your Classical Liberals (the “Live And Let Live” folks) were numerous in America and the West. Why? Because “Live And Let Live” would be ideal support for my Christian Conservative beliefs and goals, which are that God fixes the world by Christianizing it.
You can immediately see that I would strongly love the idea of being left alone while we get on with the slow incremental millenniums-long business of Christianizing the world, seeing as how I believe that is the one and only longterm workable solution that actually fixes the world.
The problem we Christian Social Conservatives are going to have with your prescriptions is that the Classical “Live And Let Live” Liberal state does not yet exist in America as regularly demonstrated by what takes place in the workplace, public schools, public square, and activist courts.