Protesters Remove U.S. Flag, Replace It With Mexican Flag Outside ICE Facility


Nope. They have the same protections. Negative Rights.

… Which is why the GOP suggested what I wanted, and the Democrats rejected it?

I mean all this talk from you, yet you’ve never once shown me a quote where Democrats want what I want.

Where is their talk about guest worker programs? Where is the talk about bracero?

Where is it Send?


No other data sets were listed. Literally the only allusion to other “data” was a comment that amounted to “Other demographers agree!”. Well, if the author of the article tells me “Other demographers agree” clearly, they must be right. No further explanation needed. The census says this, and the author of the article says other demographers agree with the census. Case closed.

There are only about 200 Americans who hold phds in demography. And based on your favorite way to find information(Googling demography and looking for different authors) every one of the top five results just literally say “Well the census says, plus other stuff we can’t be bothered to list!”.
So yeah, I’m pretty sure the entire premise is based on the census and ITIns and they’ve done no work at all beyond it. Show me how else they’ve determined it.

Because what I do know is industry studies(and these have budgets in the millions) on people living in the U.S. while possessing a non-functional grasp of English and the number stands at 30 million.

This does indeed look to me like a Trump colluded with Russia point. We have a lot of evidence! The Steele Dossier, and other stuff!
-> What other stuff
Lots! The Steel Dossier, the media reporting on things in the Steel Dossier! And other stuff! Lots of people can back this up!
->So everything is the Dossier
No, no! TONS of sources! Very credible too! The list would just be too long and exhaustive.

I really think Trump is missing the boat on this one. He ought to be doing DNA tests and charging them with human trafficking if the kid comes up as not theirs.

There isn’t. Guest worker programs is an idea promoted by people like Cato Institute and the Koch dynasty. The only politician I remember blabbering about it frequently was President W Bush. I’ve never heard a Democrat promote it. They want them as citizens so they can vote for more Democrats.


Absolutely true. Democrats want their VOTES…nothing else. They assume that if they keep giving them free cheese, they’ll have their votes forever. If illegals tended to vote for Republicans, we’d have an 80’ wall across the southern border topped with concertina wire and surrounded by land mines.


They listed the American Community Survey (ACS), the National Center for Health Statistics (NSHC), and Department of Education figures.

They go into detail for how many people you would need to see in each of those surveys, for the 22 million figure for illegals to be accurate.

And they don’t see them. In all three they aren’t there.

So it’s either a grand conspiracy, or the 22 million figure just doesn’t reconcile with the real world.

And Republicans, because it works.

It fits the human dynamics on the table, the demand for labor is not going away, our demography isn’t fixing itself to meet that demand, and the [black] market has more resources and more opportunities than whatever Gov’t agency you task to shut it down. It’s just like the drug war, only the people are more relatable, and far more intertwined with the rest of the economy.

Again, as that former Mexican police officer on Joe Rogan who loves the wall points out, the coyotes are 20 years ahead of you. Many of them also love the wall, because it gives the impression that their job is harder, when it isn’t.

To defeat the coyotes, you need to outcompete them on price. That’s the only way capital and labor will stop feeding them; the price they can charge to cross the border has to be lower than what it costs for them to do it.
Enforcement is a part of that, but so is letting people in.


That’s the one sole area where Mitt Romney had an advantage over Trump. Enforcing e-Verify would largely put an end to it. Not lawn care workers or nannies, but agriculture, cleaning services, meat packing, hotels and resorts - yes. A $250,000 fine for each illegal you’re employing will quickly result in the corporate market switching tactics.
Illegals are only cheaper because there is essentially no risk in hiring them or teeth if they end up getting caught. Strictly enforcing e-Verify would change that.

There should be a desert of opportunity for those hiring the coyotes. I agree that stopping them at the border and deporting them is one of the worst options. The best option is to ensure they don’t even attempt to make the journey in the first place. If there is no asylum and no jobs, they won’t.


It’s not going to work; using E-verify would nigh-double labor costs for marginal employers. You’re also jumping from 3% of employers, to 100%.

You’d just create the situation we see in Detroit; massive regulatory burden + large body of businesses you can’t possibly review = massive non-compliance. Rule of law suffers. And that’s just the private side, there’s a public side too.

Equally, there are loopholes. The co-worker I had from El Salvador was with employer who complied with E-verify.

In short, he was a typical case where his visa lapsed. And that’s half of who illegals are.
He only got caught because of a screening at an airport.

But the jobs aren’t going away, because the demographics we have mean chronic labor shortages.

You’re also prompting a backlash like we saw in Red states that tried this. When people start to see bottom-line drawbacks, support turns sour.

Even if you managed this partly, the result would be jobs and products over-shoring to chase the labor; how is that a better outcome?


Lol, no. E-verify takes as much effort/resources as running a normal criminal background check, which requires almost zero time for your HR(especially if outsourcing).
When I was in high school, I worked at a clothing retailer and we used e-Verify. Wendy’s also uses it. I can speak from personal experience on the book front of Wendy’s - it is FAR less than 1% of their labor cost.

Oh hey, look at that

They’re not bothering to follow the law that the state didn’t publicize and isn’t going to enforce?
Truly the mind boggles.

That’s not how e-Verify works. If he passed at the time he was hired, then he couldn’t have been overstaying his visa at the time, or else the employer wasn’t actually complying with e-Verify standards. A lot of companies that say they are complying with e-Verify don’t outsource, handle things in-house and fail audits. I’d imagine that was the case there.

It doesn’t apply to almost any of the jobs I mentioned. Domestic hotels can’t “off shore”. They have to use people who live nearby. Same deal for construction work and cleaning services.

Now for meat packing and agriculture you could in theory move those. But the additional transportation cost would offset much of the labor savings and requires upfront capital investments. Another issue is management quality. One of the big problems with off-shoring to Mexico and South America is a consistent drop in productivity, and product quality.



By marginal, I didn’t just mean "cheap, I meant small. Wendy’s can average out the cost across 1,000s of workers; small businesses cannot manage it. Nor do they tend to have the legal or personnel departments they can use to sort through the 88-page manual.

Further, when it comes to what I predict the outcome will be, we have precedent. Arizona passed a law in 2008 requiring all employers to use E-verify.

The result?

40% of businesses don’t bother using it. Businesses who did and stopped using migrants, didn’t see the positions back filled by Americans. They just remained empty, or the jobs went to another state.

The ID theft/forgery market accelerated, as faked documents are one of the work arounds. Detection of illegals because of them is only 54%.

Similar results were found in North Carolina, Mississippi, and Alabama, which each only had 40-50% compliance. And these are the States that want the system; what’s going to happen in States that don’t?

It is, he lost his visa after he was hired.

It applied to 15% of Arizona’s farm workers. That’s a cost in the millions, scale it up nationally, it becomes billions.


We shouldn’t forget that the population of the US in 1880 was a smidgeon over 50 million and we were STILL the same size (continental-wise) that we are today. We NEEDED a massive influx of immigrants then. Today, our population is roughly 320 MILLION…6 and one half times larger… and we’re approaching the saturation point population-wise, ESPECIALLY in the cities where all but 4.5% of incoming immigrants are settling. Get it? Only 4.5% of all immigrants (including illegals) are employed in AGRICULTURE today! That’s LESS than 1 million illegals who are working on farms and ranches throughout the nation! And YOU, AS, are telling us that “they are filling jobs that native-born refuse to do.” After those ICE raids earlier in Mississippi removed over 600 illegals working in meat-processing plants, THOUSANDS of Mississippians have shown up to apply for those jobs!


We are not overpopulated, so I don’t see where this argument goes.

The Club of Rome was wrong. You do know that, right Dave?

Including the assembly line jobs I see in person?

Nope, wrong.

The plant closed. Even after it was bought-out and re-opened, less Americans were working there than before the raid.

So the net result was less jobs and less work. The town itself (Postville) gravely suffered from the loss. 1/4 of it simply disappeared.

So Dave? To make sure you remember this from now on, I need to see you say this in some form:

The Plant. Closed.

Otherwise, you’re promoting a lie.


Oh, the Mexicans were also replaced by Somali Refugees:

So from one form of cheap labor to another. Apparently, we do need it. It’s just a fact of life.


I’m not talking about that meat processing plant in IOWA. I’m talking about the processing plants that were raided n MISSISSIPPI just last week. THOSE plants haven’t closed. In fact, they are hiring. Why would you rely on a left-wing website for your info, by the way?


Where the plant closed.

You need to say it Dave; you tried to make this same claim about it 3 times over. It can’t be overlooked.

200 People showed up to the job fair, including illegals who worked there in the past.

And a job fair, is not hired, nor staying.

The company btw uses E-verify. And it was 700 people lost in the raid.

  1. Says the person with no source given?

  2. Prove Marketplace is a “leftwing source” for me. I think you’re making this up.

This looks like a convenient dodge so you don’t have to respond to the fate of the town.


YOU are the one who conflated what happened in Mississippi last week with what you SAY happened in Iowa…not me. BTW, that Iowa plant has NOT “closed.”


That sounds like another dodge Dave.

Again, you claimed this multiple times about the Postville Plant:

I didn’t push you to make those claims, you did that on your own. So now, no more dodging.

The Plant closed. You need to say it Dave, I need verification that you aren’t just going to “forget” again.


Yes it was, you cannot dodge this Dave, I don’t understand why you’re trying.

The company declared bankruptcy, closed down, and another company stepped in to re-open it.

At a fraction of its original capacity.

You’re not going to find the original company listed anywhere, so why are you denying the truth?


It’s OPEN, however. It never “closed”, it just changed ownership. Are you REALLY going to continue to deny this?


Yes it did:

The plant closed 5 months after the raid. The new owners didn’t open it back up until a year after the raid.

So you can’t dodge this, now you need to say it Dave. The Plant Closed.

I’m not pushing you to admit fault or error, I’m saying be honest about what happened.


WRONG. You should read your own link. All that closed down was the BEEF processing part of the plant. They CONTINUED to operate the poultry lines which were still operational when the auction was held!


No Dave, that was a test. The plant eventually closed even the poultry line.

Now, you’ll admit to everything.

"A lot of people lost everything," said Brink, who was a truck driver for Agriprocessors before the plant closed. She and her husband had enough money saved to keep their house until they could find work again. "

Ralph Rosenberg, executive director of the Iowa Civil Rights Division, said several state agencies are helping Postville residents cope with the plant’s closure.”

Property valuations went down, which meant lost tax dollars for the city. With its workforce gone, the plant struggled to stay open, eventually closing.

You admit you were dodging the truth, and that the plant closed.