Republicans Are Weak


Of **Volume II. ** That’s how Toqueville originally published it; in two volumes.

If you’re reading an edition that makes it into one binding, such as in this 1899 print, it’s chapter 22. The 1899 print even has a notion at the end of the chapter acknowledging this:

So Dave, your quote is still not here. Not even in that version. Face facts.


I didn’t even need to look at it, because my point is that not all falsehoods are deliberate. A person can be wrong without being a liar. Forum rules frown on such accusations.


He states he just went into his copy of the book, and found the quote.

Not that he simply “believes” the quote is there, but that he just now found it. Yet, we can tell just by looking through the text, that this is impossible.

This as close to absolute proof of fibbing as you can get.


Yea, couple of days ago I was stung by some wasps and it must have been a MILLION stings…got passed by a truck the other day out on Tx 130 which has a 85 mph legal speed limit, I would swear that truck that passed me must have been going 200 mph…


Just present your evidence. Please don’t deliberate on possible motivations. It’s not necessary. Draw your conclusions and allow others to draw theirs. Maybe he’s got a special 1951 Conservative People edition that adds it?

I don’t know why conservatives need it to be said by a famous dead guy or why liberals think they’ve discredited the statement by debunking it (not that I think that’s your motivation or that you are a liberal). I think it’s a true statement.


? I didn’t. No where did I say why he did this. He claimed he did what I said himself:

> I’m looking at my copy of “Democracy in America” and my quote (from memory) is essentially correct and found in the section he calls, “Philosophical Method of the Americans.”

But this chapter has nothing to do with public spending. The quote appears no where within it. He has claimed he has done something that is impossible.

What he said isn’t present in an edition from 1838, nor in editions from as recent as 2006.

This is as clear evidence of fibbing as one ever finds. I didn’t attribute any words or “motivations” to him; he made them himself.


Pappadave got caught bsing. I don’t see the problem. Alaskaslim’s posts in this respect are mild by this forum’s history. I can’t count how many times I’ve been called a liar, and I’m sure I’ve thrown the accusation around also. It’s a politics forum, some saltiness is to be expected.


You weren’t “lying,” right pappadave? Just engaging in “exaggerations” of “no consequence,” right?


OK, I have NOT read THE book, not sure what it sez, but my BET $$$ its sez something like the above OR “OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT”. My guess is most folks are not familiar with that term, but I am and just about anyone that have ever been in the military for a few years has heard it and come to understand it.

That said whether or NOT this is THE exact wording or not at this point, is irrelevant and its irrelevant because the statement is a TRUE statement, so the exact wording may not be exact as written, but nonetheless the statement as Dave wrote it is true and says the same thing or words to that effect.

(idiomatic) used to indicate a paraphrase or the chance of an error in the details of reported speech.
When he hit his finger with the hammer, he said “ouch” or words to that effect.

Read more at Or-words-to-that-effect dictionary definition | or-words-to-that-effect defined


> When the taste for physical gratifications among them has grown more rapidly than their education . . . the time will come when men are carried away and lose all self-restraint . . . . It is not necessary to do violence to such a people in order to strip them of the rights they enjoy; they themselves willingly loosen their hold. . . . they neglect their chief business which is to remain their own masters.

Lets break this down without a Leftist agenda.

> When the taste for physical gratifications among them has grown more rapidly than their education

When the peoples desire for stuff is stronger than their understanding of why it is important to buy your own stuff…

> the time will come when men are carried away and lose all self-restraint

They will try to fulfill all of their desires for stuff by using government to take it from others on their behalf…

> It is not necessary to do violence to such a people in order to strip them of the rights they enjoy; they themselves willingly loosen their hold

Their ignorance will not be concerned about the Individual Rights that are sacrificed in order to get them stuff for free because they don’t understand that they too have lost these Rights; not just the ones who are targeted to buy their free stuff…

> they neglect their chief business which is to remain their own masters.

They exchange Individual Liberty, Self Determination, Personal Responsibility and Accountability and Constitutional Rights for the perceived security and provision that a government without limits to its power can promise; but which they can never provide.

The American system will endure until the majority discovers that they can vote themselves largess from the National Treasury.

Any people willing to trade security for Liberty shall have neither.

Or, a thousand other ways that these concepts have been articulated since the first democracy was formulated.

The point is not who said it with which words; the point is that I always say it better than everyone else…Maybe that’s a stretch…Maybe…


Just read the entire chapter Pappadave claimed to have found the quote in (allegedly with book in hand), and there’s nothing even remotely like that quote in the chapter. Not even close. Shameless.


Any political forum has at least somewhat of a civic duty to promote standards of decency, even a silly internet message board. I never thought I’d find conservatives defending such subjectivism with respect to truth. Pappadave is being indecent and dishonest, and it’s good for him (and us) that he’s being called out on it.


Nope. None of the words in that quote appear in the context Dave suggests. You can word search through the entire text of both volume 1 and 2 and see for yourself.

He calls the politicians who are experts at exploiting the public purse villains, but he says nothing of the public at large doing it.

Toqueville does have a theory for what can end America, but it isn’t about public expenditure. It’s soft despotism:

“***Having thus taken each citizen in turn in its powerful embrace and shaped him to its will, government then extends its embrace to include the whole of society. It covers the whole of social life with a network of petty, complicated rules that are both minute and uniform … . It does not break men’s will, but softens, bends, and guides it; it seldom enjoins, but often inhibits, actions; it does not destroy anything, but prevents much being born; it is not at all tyrannical, but it hinders, restrains, enervates, stifles, and stultifies so much that in the end each nation is no more than a flock of timid and hardworking animals with the government as its shepherd.***”

Ergo, the creeping hand of the bureaucratic state that walks in and slowly erodes freedoms because Americans, due to their tendency to disassociate/isolate themselves, will seek direction. Or so he thought.


You did indeed speculate that his motive was to deliberately communicate a falsehood (“lying”). Don’t.


That he looked into the book, in that chapter, and found this quote, is a falsehood. Full stop.


Well after doing a lot of research I think I have found the answer:

First allow me to provide this:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.
The earliest known attribution of this quote was December 9, 1951, in what appears to be an op-ed piece in The Daily Oklahoman under the byline Elmer T. Peterson, Elmer T. Peterson (9 December 1951). “This is the Hard Core of Freedom”. Daily Oklahoman: p. 12A… The quote has not been found in Tytler’s work. It has also been attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville.
There are many variants circulating with various permutations of majority, voters, citizens, or public. Ronald Reagan is known to have used this in speeches, as reported in Loren Collins, “The Truth About Tytler”:
Other variants:
The American Republic will endure until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”

My research seems to validate the fact that no one and everyone has used this phrase and that its been attributed to many people, commonly is Toqueville or Tytler, Ben Franklin, Reagan and the list is as long as your arm. What we is a truism that would be apparent to ANYONE who looks at our Democratic process and its clear that you can simply vote for the person that gives you the most largesse and sooner or later it all comes to a halt when they run out of money.

Point is I find that no one said it, but all have said it, its just makes sense…


I don’t get this. So now everyone on RO gets to live in their own little bubble where their honesty or integrity are never called into question, even when they are obviously lying? That’s not healthy.


what’s good for the goose bud.


I already cited that:


This is incoherent. It’s also not a reasonable interpretation of your source.