Responsibility before conceiving


#1

Is there any unselfish reason children are brought into this world? Especially from religious point of view (Christianity).


#2

Is there any unselfish reason people choose not to have children?

Why would it be for selfish reasons? That would assume that everyone who has children chooses when to have them, and what sex, etc.

Edit: I think that from the Christian point of view, it is the least likely to be for selfish reasons.


#3

[quote=“Susanna, post:2, topic:37384”]
Is there any unselfish reason people choose not to have children?

Why would it be for selfish reasons? That would assume that everyone who has children chooses when to have them, and what sex, etc.

Edit: I think that from the Christian point of view, it is the least likely to be for selfish reasons.
[/quote]It is plain to see shirley is very unhappy


#4

It was suggested to me that she is trolling.


#5

Funny how unhappiness and trolling tend to hand-in-hand.


#6

Don’t feed the troll.


#7

This message is hidden because ShirleyJ is on your ignore list.

What is there to feed?


#8

What do you mean by unselfish?

Every possible act or lack of action is selfish.


#9

Selfish: “devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.”

With that in mind, your claim seems to me to be obviously wrong.


#10

[quote=“J.Anderson, post:9, topic:37384”]
Selfish: “devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.”

With that in mind, your claim seems to me to be obviously wrong.
[/quote]J., the original question appears loaded to me, a trap, a gotcha.

It isn’t clear to me what this person is asking. It’s a silly question if it considers that selfishness is a lack of regard for others. It’s too open-ended otherwise. In your definition, once regard for others is no longer considered, every decision is selfish. Until I understand what this person means by “unselfish,” it’s a confusing question that if taken seriously would net a variety of answers where those posting will be on different pages and talking past each other.

With that in mind, there is nothing wrong with my comment.


#11

If you remove the part about an action being undertaken without sufficient concern for others, then it’s no longer “selfishness.” And so all you’re saying is basically “every action is undertaken to further one of that person’s interests,” which is completely banal. For instance, Mother Teresa might have an interest in helping needy children, so in helping needy children, she is furthering her own (benevolent and altruistic) interests. But to say that she’s acting “selfishly” in such a case is just sheer Randian confusion at its most inane.


#12

#13

[quote=“J.Anderson, post:11, topic:37384”]
If you remove the part about an action being undertaken without sufficient concern for others, then it’s no longer “selfishness.” And so all you’re saying is basically “every action is undertaken to further one of that person’s interests,” which is completely banal. For instance, Mother Teresa might have an interest in helping needy children, so in helping needy children, she is furthering her own (benevolent and altruistic) interests. But to say that she’s acting “selfishly” in such a case is just sheer Randian confusion at its most inane.
[/quote]So, given that ( thank you for clarifying for the OP), to the OP, I say, “Yes, in fact most of the time.” It’s an obvious answer, and not much here for discussion.

Where will the OP take that answer, J.?


#14

I suspect the OP wishes to make a point similar to my “life preserver” argument.

At any rate you should know me well enough by now to understand how hard it is for me to let that sort of Randian rubbish in your post pass without comment.


#15

[quote=“J.Anderson, post:14, topic:37384”]
I suspect the OP wishes to make a point similar to my “life preserver” argument.
[/quote]That being?

[quote=“J.Anderson, post:14, topic:37384”]
At any rate you should know me well enough by now to understand how hard it is for me to let that sort of Randian rubbish in your post pass without comment.
[/quote]So, I say, it ain’t selfish. Then the OP says but it is selfish with some weird contortion of logic about how the world sucks or something. Once the OP starts down that path, I point out that with such contortions, every act is selfish. I skipped the middle man. I really don’t know where it was going, but that’s my guess. It sounds like a gotcha-being-hypocritical you’re-all-selfish-jerks type of question. There’s not enough context to really get a discussion going.

I think Rand misused the word. I tend to think of selfishness as going after what you want and stepping on whomever you must on the way to get there (Rand would have called it sacrificing others to your interests) – basically the same as your dictionary definition: Without regard for others. Most of us don’t use the word “selfish” the way Rand did, and that’s where Randiands are disconnected from the rest of the world. You should know me well enough to know what I think of “selfishness.”


#16

Ha, we got into a discussion about that in the first Sociology class I took in college - 'way back in '55. The professor used the word “selfish” in the context of “self-involvement.” I was a really timid soul in those days, and am surprised now that I had the nerve to challenge the professor. He actually agreed with what I was saying - that “selfishness,” as he was using it, simply meant self-involvement. Of course, everything anyone does requires self-involvement. How could it not?


#17

[quote=“Susanna, post:16, topic:37384”]
Of course, everything anyone does requires self-involvement. How could it not?
[/quote]Nodnod.


#18

Let me try this again, part by part.
This question came to me while reading Genesis.
"16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

So basically, Adam and Eve were removed from Eden to the cursed land because they violated God’s rule. Unless there’s some other verse in other parts of the bible, it seems being born in this world is then coming to a cursed land. So part of the reason for this post is to get perspectives on this. Worthy of note is that, before the two broke God’s rule, he’d said to them to multiply.
That’s part 1.
Part 2 is predicated on part 1. Having a child is bringing another person into existence. Considering the above (if the above is accurate) then what good does it do the children to be brought into this world? Are there any unselfish reasons to bring children into this world? This is a question and not a statement.
I hope that clarifies it a bit.

Edit: Let me add this component. Would it be accurate to say there’s no command from God to have children? So a lot of choice (individual responsibility) is involved here.


#19

Thank you for clarifying that, Shirley. The context of your question is very helpful.

From a Christian perspective, I can think of one important point.

Joy is possible, and life should be joyful. Life is a good thing.

Galatians 5:22-23
New International Version (NIV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
The fruit of the Spirit includes joy and peace and love. These are all good things we can experience. Living in a cursed world does not eliminate the possibility of obtaining joy. Apparently God expects it of us. I fully believe that life is not meant to be hated even in a cursed world. Yes, it has challenges that result from sin, but it still not meant to be hated. It is meant to be enjoyed. We are meant to suffer only for the right causes.

In the long term it is clear that a child is born, lives and ideally should progress to eternal life with God. A selfless parent will rear his or her child to achieve this. Life is an opportunity presented to a child should the child choose to embrace it.

In addition, as you note, having children fulfills God’s commandment to “be fruitful and multiply.” At the least, it’s just following what God said to do, and unless we go to the Randian selfishness J. and I discussed, that ain’t a “selfish” motive.


#20

No. A search on Bible Gateway turns up several relevant scriptural reference hits for “be fruitful and multiply.” Q.E.D.