The List: Republican Senators Demanding Trump End Border Enforcement


Yet, nothing compares to what you did.

Instrumenatlizing your knowledge about aircraft, to make accusations of people, that were proven false.

You didn’t take ownership, and you didn’t even acknowledge how serious it was to do this in the first place.

This is why I treat you with contempt; you make accusations, then you don’t treat it seriously.

You treat it all as if its there to satisfy your own mood. Honor be damned.


BS. We have a PUBLIC RECORD of births. We have no such “record” of how many have snuck across our border and are pretending to belong here. Pew has a vested interest in fudging numbers in aid of the Business Roundtable and U.S. Chamber of Commerce which help FUND them.


Why yes we do!

Y’know who also does? MEXICO! Know how we can use that, to figure out how many of them are here?


1 My alleged sins somehow excuse yours?
2 Who “proved” what false? I proved your claims of the range of various aircraft false in the course of an argument (and you cited one of those in the course of your own case, and suddenly, according to you, it’s irrelevant once it’s clear you don’t know your facts).
3 Who was I accusing of what? I’ve got an idea of that, but you’ve been most unclear about it. If it’s what I think it was, I do indeed acknowledge it, and I stand by it.
4 See above. You accuse people of your own faults while denying the latter, and except for minor points, you won’t admit that you’re wrong, no matter how screamingly obvious the evidence against you. You just pile on the sophistry.
5 To put it succinctly, bull. And there is no honor in sophistry.


BS again, AS? Mexico’s “birth records” are spotty…just like in ANY 3rd-world country. Who CARES if they have “birth records”? And what does that have to do with determining how many 3rd-worlders from ALL OVER are here illegally? It MIGHT be possible to extrapolate how many MEXICANS are here. It does NOT tell anyone how many of them are illegals nor does it have a tinker’s dam to do with how many from Guatemala, El Salvador, etc. are here illegally.


No; it means you made the first wrong, and never answered for it. Which set the the tone for how I approach you.

And this wasn’t between you and me, is was between you and people you apparently didn’t give **** about, but that didn’t stop you from dragging them through the mud.

Answer for it or don’t, but if you don’t, then why the hell would I care about what critiques you have of me?

You offer critiques through trust FC, you haven’t done a damn thing to earn that. Only the opposite, right from the start from when I got here by insinuating people betrayed their duty, and then not taking that accusation seriously.

That sets a bad precedent.

Nope, I had sources. Took pictures of them & posted them here. And even if you thought your sources were “somehow” more authoritative than mine, it didn’t matter.

Your sources did not indicate an F-15E could make a full sortie to Benghazi. Even your numbers ran short.

So all I see here is obfuscation, to hide from the fact that you made an accusation, that wasn’t true.

You got it wrong, and you didn’t take responsibility, for accusing other people’s honor.


No, I’m going to listen to the guy who actually looks at that data, thank you:


More blatant Misdirection, I say illegals are NOT flooding our border for farm jobs and the response is “Farmers are hiring illegals”.


“Farmers” have more illegals living in their area than ever before yet they can’t get enough of them to become slave labor on their farms; so the Leftist solution is too open the floodgates even MORE!

Illegals don’t want these jobs, illegals are not coming here for those jobs, allowing a larger flood if illegals will not fill these jobs.

These illegals get paid far more under the table doing construction and transportation jobs and they still get all the “free” housing, medical care, food, phone, electricity and a monthly cash stipend from American Taxpayer.

Big shock that Farmer John can’t them to wander around in the dirt and heat for slave wages anymore.

Today’s Farmers are no different than the Southern Plantation owners who absolutely REFUSED to consider a new business model that did not require slave labor, when they were finally FORCED to implement better ideas by losing a war they found that they were more profitable by paying Market wages to Free men.

The Left refused to listen back then and they refuse to listen now, and they do not care how much destruction they cause in the lives of legal citizens in the process.


Uh huh. And how does one distinguish that “footprint” amid the waste of (for example) 40% of enough food to feed 300 odd million people to a state of epidemic obesity? It isn’t one footprint, anyway; it a multitude among many multitudes.

We measure the population with this thing called a ‘census’. Mebbe you’ve heard of that? It doesnt try to count everyone, though, but attempts to generate something called a “representative sample.” Think illegals fill out census questionaires?


Uh, RET? That was you. The article I cited before you joined the conversation, was pointing out that laborers have become scarce in places around the country, and thus, crops are being left to rot for want of labor.

Pointing out that not all illegals want that particular work, is not a response to that article, or the issue. Or an explanation for why farmers feel compelled to use them in the first place.

The issue you’re supposed to answer, is how you’re going to solve labor demand to stop it from undercutting immigration laws.

You don’t get compliance, unless you get employers on board with the policy, again, whatever that policy is. It doesn’t have to be Goldwater’s, as I advocate for, but it does have to address this.

This isn’t true; even Paleo-conservatives have pointed out that illegals from Mexico peaked in 2007, because their birth rate fell below replacement rate, hence, there are less people who are willing to come.

The refugees from further down south who’ve taken much of the limelight, are nowhere near the number of Mexicans we used to get.

The destruction is caused by distortion inherent to our laws. I’d reckon about 95% of what goes on is attributable to our regulations, and how they’re enforced.

If you let the Free market handle labor supply, things would work out far better.

It’s because there’s been push for our system to instead be paternalistic of our domestic labor, and our economy, that we get dysfunction.

Joseph Swing already proved 50 years ago that answering labor demand works to solve the issue of illegal immigration. You’re not giving me a reason why we haven’t followed his example.


It seems to me you’re thinking of mass consumption at something like a restaurant; I’m thinking of more of what people buy at grocery stores.

Equally, if we’ve been following consumer behavior for 40 years or more, we likely already know what people’s habits are, and how to account for them. That’s around half of what market researchers do.

Believe it or not, they do. It’s in conjunction with something called an ITIN, which is what they pay taxes through.

Why would they pay for such a thing? Because it acts as a stand in for a Social Security number, which one needs for plenty of things in our economy. Loans, Mortgages, buying property, Employment records, etc… If you want to live here long term, it’s pretty hard to get by without one.

It’s easier to acquire than a fake SS number, and harder to disqualify, as technically, it’s not even illegal for an illegal to have it.

Again though, this is also about contrast. Contrasting Mexico census figures to ours, and contrasting the known number of legal immigrants reporting into the census, vs the total number of immigrants who answered.

CIS itself seems to put stock in this method, I’ve even seen them call Pew more accurate than DHS.


Crops are rotting but oil wells get drilled out in the middle of nowhere, I wonder if that is because the oil industry does not try to get the government to subsidize their workforce so they can pay slave wages?

You change direction whenever you are cornered, that means you know your position is indefensible.

The fact is you could drag the entire population of South America to the US and the “Farmers” would still not get their labor for slave rates.

Back when illegals feared being caught they were content to hide out in farm camps and work for nothing, now that whole States are embracing your ideas they no longer need to hide so they laugh at the idea of doing those jobs when they can get free everything and 4 times as much cash doing better work under the table and tax free.

California is your Utopia, highest poverty rate in the nation and a dependent class of 70 percent so the Left never lose an election.

You are just going to have to wait for another Leftist like Obama to implement your plan, Trump knows better and he is immune to Misdirection and false premises.


And people whom you haven’t named as I asked. Who did I allegedly wrong? If it was those who didn’t have their tankers ready to fly in short notice, I stand by that; that’s enough to get any officer in deep trouble. And a generation before mine, officers would have been COURT MARTIALED for less. By the way, do you have a personal connection here? I doubt that you’re throwing out this honor argument for its own sake. Not that it changes my argument; I stand by it.

And apparently, you care a lot about my critiques of you; because you blow your gasket on many different subjects when you get caught with your credibility shorts down (again). Yeah, I think this was and is about you (and your ego) and me, your denial not withstanding.

By the way, how is it not hypocrisy that you accuse me of dishonoring someone when you just accused RET of your own sin of obfuscation?

As to trust, I’ll leave it to others to decide which (if either) of us is trustworthy.

Bullcrap. You may have cited one source for the range of the F-15E (by the way, I figured out what your lowball figure for its combat radius was: It was for MAXIMUM WARLOAD (with all its induced drag) and NO EXTERNAL FUEL; I carefully specified FULL EXTERNAL FUEL and MINIMUM WARLOAD (two to four Mk. 81s or 82s, and two to four AIM-9s), and you certainly show pictures and charts of it. Get the obfuscation, irresponsibility, spin doctoring, sophistry, and all-around hogwash lumber out of your own eye.


Oil isn’t marginally profitable, requires more technical skill on site, and doesn’t have the huge list of competitors around the world.

There’s only a few places in the world that you can dig for oil profitably (yet is has demand that nigh-equates what we get for food), and American producers are aided by the fact that they’re right next to the refineries they’ll send their product to.

Uh, RET? I almost hate to point this out, butt…

The crops are still rotting. You did not address this.

No RET, quit sidestepping & answer.

Why are the crops rotting, if you believe there’s enough labor to harvest them? Why would farmers let that happen?

There’s only one reason as far as I can figure, and it’s something any business would do. Cut their losses.


The nearest tankers were in Mildenhall. It had nothing to do with whether they were “on standby”, they weren’t close by, and the F-16s at Aviano weren’t armed.

Of course I do; 9/11.

People accusing those who I knew who were at the Pentagon and Andrews AFB of either failing their duty or assisting a “cover up”, because they can’t go to the damn effort to get their facts straight. Apparently they perceive that effort as being something beneath them.

It’s people treating every service member involved as their two bits of hate. It’s all meant to service their own mood; putting that before servicing the truth.

So FC, if you instrumentalize your knowledge to make the same claims about service members on duty during Benghazi, or to give their accusers ammunition, then I get to treat you the same as I treat 9/11 truthers. I make no apologies for that.

You know better than to do this, you know how serious it is to accuse anyone in the military of being in breach of their duty. That you decide to do it anyway, then not take those accusations seriously leaves you with no room to complain when I call you on it. In whatever manner I decide to do it in.

Yeah, because the emotions I have about that, lead back to this.

Making accusations at will, then never taking responsibility for them. Not unless I seriously twist your arm.

“Thou shall not bear false witness” — That’s doesn’t refer just to lying FC, that includes someone making accusations they cannot substantiate. You have no excuse to be doing this.

No no no, quit avoiding the issue

Even your numbers did not indicate, an F-15E could make it to Benghazi, loiter, and go back.

Devolving the issue to one about who got the damn stats on the aircraft right, was you obfuscating that your accusation didn’t hold up.

The F-15E could not do this mission without tanker support. That was the factual answer, and you never once admitted this, despite your using this as evidence, that the officers in charge didn’t do what they could have.

It was the entire crux of your argument to accuse them, and it was false. Your math, didn’t add up.

You know this aspect of the subject better than me FC, I’ll fully admit that. Your stats may very well be the better ones to judge this by. It doesn’t change the fact that you were using your knowledge to say something about other people, and their actions, that was. not. true.


The issue involved ONLY whether or not support fighters could be refueled. The answer, of course, is that THEY COULD HAVE BEEN. They COULD have gone to Egypt or even over to Libya’s capital which had a commercial airport with AVGAS. Too, the tankers available in Iraq COULD have made the flight near Benghazi in the time it took the fighters to get there and been available for refueling. Who was going to stop them? The ONLY answer is that our own GOVERNMENT stopped them…period.


Muslim Brotherhood controlled at that time.

Insecure; only a small team on the ground, no idea if more elements of the same militias who attacked us were organizing there too.

What’s more? The F-15E were not on standby, and were not assigned responsibility for Libya;
Libya was Aviano’s job. The F-15E’s were assigned to other areas on the map, for other threats.

They’re based in Qatar, and no, even if those planes were on standby, that flight takes an hour longer than flying from Mildenhall.


They could have gone to Israel, then. The POINT…which seems to elude you…is that they didn’t HAVE to return from whence they came directly. There WERE options which the Obama government ignored or never even considered.


Nope, that still exceeds the F-15E’s maximum range; it’s pushing nearly 2,900 miles.

The point is, we had other threats on the board, which those F-15Es are assigned to (unlike Libya), and you’re trying strand them somewhere far away from their base?

Before you even know that the embassy is in trouble, to the degree, that they can’t hold to the contingencies promised?

Sorry Dave, but you’re judging this with hindsight, and with no idea of the readiness of those F-15s.


Wow. I’m not going to bother responding, AS; as usual, you made it easy to consider the source. I’ll let what I’ve written stand, and let everyone else judge who’s talking crap. I’m off this hamster wheel (again).