So, those on the political right will fight for your right to make your own decisions (while confusing the hell out of you about what’s happening), but when you make the wrong decisions, They’ll scapegoat you.
This is a common theme.
While there are still people on the right calling it a hoax.
Utterly wrong and misleading. No significant democrat I’m aware of EVER said they wouldn’t get the vaccine.
Harris says (as reported in your link):
“I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump … I will not take his word for it,” Harris told Bash last year when asked if she would get the shot.
Yet they conveniently left out the rest of her response (see video).
I listened to her when she was asked that question on CNN. I remember I was sitting in the parking lot at CVS She wasn’t “anti-vax”, she was saying that she didn’t trust the Trump administration’s word (why would we?), but that if experts, like Fouci recommended it, she’d be the first in line. If Biden told me to do it and the medical community didn’t agree, I wouldn’t get it.
How many prominent Republicans in the first few months after the release of the vaccine did so in public? Honestly, I don’t know. I don’t recall seeing any, and if I’m right I’d speculate it’s because of the misinformation coming from the right. Republicans were taking it in private but wouldn’t do it in public in the early weeks of the pandemic?
Why? Because they were shamed out of it.
Remember Trump touting Hydroxychloroquine? Disinfectants and “light”? Yeah, that’s why we don’t trust Trump and we shouldn’t.
From the Daily KOS article in your link:
More than anything during this pandemic Donald Trump has proved himself wholly devoid of what most of us expect as normal human decency. From lying about the threat of the virus itself, to completely ignoring the toll of Americans sickened or killed, to pushing for the reopening of businesses and schools, to advocating reducing the number of COVID-19 tests to improve his own poll numbers, Trump has made it quite clear that Americans’ actual well-being has never even crossed his mind in the last six months, except how it impacts his own re-election.
But that has NOTHING to do with the vaccine and everything to do with the trustworthiness of the administration. To claim otherwise is like trying to spin a plate full of pasta.
AS, Since when have you been such a mouthpiece for the right?
They do though, as the Daily Kos pointed out, and celebrated:
“Kamala Harris wouldn’t trust a Trump vaccine, and neither should anyone else”
The takeaway? The CDC and FDA were implicated right alongside Trump.
That’s cutting legitimacy to the bone, and politicizing the issue.
What’s more, the Democrats still haven’t given any of the vaccines full authorization (doubting the Trump administration authorization “did it right”), and didn’t pair vaccinations with removing mask mandates.
Again, alluding to Trump declaring a vaccine ready for use as opposed to medical experts, though I’ll admit the KOS article (in this case) does a poor job of making the distinction. That said, you’re still reaching and land in false equivalence.
No, it’s not “politicizing”. We saw Debora Birx sit squirming uncomfortably in her chair as Trump talked about injecting disinfectants, afraid to speak out, and even if we give Trump the benefit of the doubt and say that’s not what he meant, his child-like insecurity and heavy-handed approach was the cause, not Dems that were “anti vaxers”.
Politicizing the vaccine started with Trump, the blame the Dems as they react to it is pathetic.
If Trump hadn’t tried to downplay the issue early on and encouraged people to listen to the experts (rather than trying to run daily briefings himself so he could attempt to control the narrative), none of this would have been an issue. Trying to say that the Dems are equally guilty (or worse) is nothing but false equivalence.
Nope, they’re saying you can’t trust a vaccine Coming from Trump’s administration, including
the CDC and FDA.
It’s in the article, and they made the equivalence. They said you can’t trust the agencies, they make no distinction for Fauci’s sake or any other public official.
It’s simply, “administration and all attached to it, is bad.”
Yes it is.
nothing emanating from this administration or any or its agencies is to be trusted
That is a political statement. And so is the sentence before it:
“This administration has already corrupted the Centers for Disease Control through political pressure and there is every reason to believe the FDA is similarly compromised”
These are blatantly political. That is self-evident.
You cannot twist this CS, that is what those statements are.
I don’t care who started it, both sides should have stopped.
The Dems for their part didn’t stop politicizing the vaccines, or masks, or invermectin, even after coming to power. Neither did republicans.
But since the Democrats are now in power, the buck now stops with them. If their messaging is confusing, fails to lay down proper incentives, and condemns alternatives just because Trump wanted it in the past, that’s their responsibility.
It is a policy and messaging failure.
Democrats underplayed the issue early on, Nancy Pelosi was holding rallies saying to ignore any restriction or shutdowns in February 2020. Biden still had messaging to the effect until march 11th.
You are way missing the mark here.
What Trump has blame for is not interceding into the CDC testing debacle sooner, underestimating how long shutdowns might have to go for, and backing treatments before evidence could confirm.
Yes they are.
and since you didn’t read it:
The failure of the Biden Administration to meet the 70% vaccination mark comes from their confused messaging, and their trying to blame Facebook for it, is ********
I’m done. You deception on this matter is uncharacteristic The CDC and the FDA aren’t the only experts, so while I agree that the CDC and the FDA were under an enormous amount of political pressure placed by the Trump administration, Dems never as a group recommended that people don’t take the vaccine, they did, appropriately state some misgiving about the administration.
The problem was caused by the former administration. It’s the equivalent of running in front of a car and then blaming the driver rather than the person that ran in front of the car.
Clearly the problem was deeply rooted in the former administrations pathetic messaging and constant lying, not in the public interest, but to serve it’s own agenda.
The rest of your post is defending the indefensible. It was the former administration that created this shit sandwich and you seem surprised that we find ourselves in the state we’re in.
Again, if the former administration would have put the American people first instead of trying to politicize it and allow domestic and foreign misinformation campaigns to take hold, we wouldn’t be in the mess we find ourselves in.
That said, the Dems aren’t perfect and they’ve made mistakes.
Jesus, do you really believe that? Has Dave or RET hijacked your account?
Seriously though, how much of the blame on the situation would you place on the former administration vs the current?
That was the point of the Biden thread, though I generally don’t bias the topics of my threads, regardless of my opinion.
Now you like correcting people and all you need to do is read the thread to see I think what the younger Biden is doing is, at best questionable and at worst unethical.
Completely agree, it was the prior administration’s failure to publicly recognize that Facebook and other social media platforms are under attack by foreign interests and more consequently a clear strategy to do anything about it, though I will be happy to share some condemnation of the current administration’s lack of effort to take a stronger stand on both points. That said, it’s still a vast improvement over the ass-kissing of Russia that the last administration was engaged in, despite the few comments to the contrary (which were more about plausible deniability than anything)…
True and Trump spent his entire Presidency doing so. So while you are chastising me for failure to recognize consequences, why don’t you take a moment and admit how the previous administration undermined those agencies which led to comments from the left that you are critical of.
I’d also like to remind you that Fouci was and still is a member of the CDC and she (Harris) specifically stated that if he recommended the vaccine she would be first in line to take it. Which seems to me to be tacit support of the organizations and the vaccine.
My point is, Tucker Carlson et. al. at Fox have done much, much more to dissuade people from taking the vaccine than anything the left has done, which is why areas that voted democrat were much more likely to take the vaccine.
To prove how utterly ridiculous your position is, all you need to do is look at how people voted by percentage for Trump and Biden. Then compare that to the vaccination rate.
For instance, Vermont was the state that Biden captured the greatest percentage of votes, about 66% IIRC and the vaccination rate was about the same.
The opposite is also true in states that primarily voted for Trump, vaccination rates were much lower.
Can you see the clear correlation? You would if you looked up presidential support vs vaccine hesitancy. If Biden and Harris and the liberal media and their rhetoric were so persuasive and damaging as you claim, why are vaccine rates to high in areas that are more likely to listen to what they have to say and so poor in areas that are less likely to trust the Biden administration and the liberal media?
The fact is left is much more likely to get vaccinated based on what sources they (are more likely to) trust are telling them.
AS, you know that I don’t disagree with you if I think you’re right. I’ve liked many of your posts because I think your arguments are sometimes solid and on mroe than one occation I’ve re-evaluated my own opinion based on your input (though I rarely say as much), but here you’ve failed utterly here and you need to admit it.
To believe that the reason that people in Red states have such low rates of vaccination is because of left leaning bias and misinformation is to believe that people in Red states are more influenced by MSNBC, Daily KOS and Biden have to say than FOX, Carlson and Trump are saying.
It’s ridiculous on it’s face and show the abject failure of your argument in this case.
As if people in Red states don’t trust the CDC or the FDA because of what Harris, MSNBC or Biden says. Are you ******* kidding me?
You are still glossing over the fact that the doubt started, in earnest with the previous administration and had Trump not spent most of his presidency lying and trying to undermine the institutions of government, this wouldn’t have been an issue.
I will if you will. But you’re still shilling, in this case, for the right.
My point was that the problem of confused messaging existed the day Biden took office. To blame him as the root of the problem is ridiculous and as I’ve already shown, people who are likely to watch and trust left leaning sources are more likely to get vaccinated, so again, this argument falls flat on it’s face and you, of all people, should know better.
As far as his comment about Facebook, I will agree that Facebook is a symptom of a much bigger problem and his comments are blame shifting. I would rather have seen “the buck stops here” and take responsibility for the current situation by outlining the situation, accepting past mistakes and clarification on what should be done next. That said, given the opinions on the right, including a HUGE thread here on RO, shows the real root of the problem.
However the difference between this administration and the last is this administration recognizes the threat and has said they will defer to the experts and haven’t embarked on a strategy of openly trying to control the narrative, which is evidenced by the lack of interference by the Whitehouse stifling the CDC and the FDA, both in demanding a certain narrative and moving and removing people who refuse to tow the line.
Is the administration perfect or anything even closely approaching perfection? Certainly not. I didn’t vote for Biden because I though he was a great leader and orator. I voted for him because I thought the last President was, by far the worst that I know of (20th and 21st centuries) and Biden, for all of his faults and bad policies was much, much better than the alternative.
I think the problem with COVID is this: it seems to be not much worse than the Asian Flu we went through about sixty years ago. That is, bad, but not a highly-infectious mass killer of all ages and conditions.
Now, if it WERE a highly-infectious mass killer of all ages and conditions, then the state would have to enforce draconian lockdown/wear-masks/get-vaccinated rules. Only suicidally-dogmatic Libertarians would prefer mass deaths so long as the few survivors had not been coerced, to what is effectively martial law. We put up with extreme measures like this in wartime because we must.
The problem is, there are huge uncertainties about every aspect of this virus.
Now, in the past, most of us would just ‘trust the experts’ – who would, supposedly, be above partisan politics. But we no longer do.
Educational experts and social scientists in general tell us that Black failure is due to systematic white racism. Since everyone knows that’s not true, this undermines our trust in experts from areas of real science.
The New York Times ran stories about Saddam Hussein’s efforts to build atom bombs – and conservatives thought, “Well, for once, they’re on the side of the good guys.”
But we were bamboozled. Most conservatives haven’t quite admitted this yet but … we were lied to, and by our own side. “A slam dunk, Mr President.” Uh-huh.
So now … the conservative base – not the most sophisticated people in the world – just don’t trust Official Sources.
And you know what? That’s the beginning of wisdom.
But nothing comes without a price, and the price we’re paying is the spread of the ideas of various hucksters and quacks, whose market used to be New Age custard-heads. And … didn’t we hear from the Left, year after year, that ‘Big Pharma’, as part of the evil capitalist conspiracy, was promoting drugs to us because they made money from it, not because they were the best solution to the problems they supposedly addressed. Well … vaccines, same-same.
I just hope my side doesn’t end up winning lots of Darwin Awards.
Trump undermined control measures and masks after the initial shut downs his administration put into effect in April and May.
We’re talking about the vaccines. The administration never once undermined the Vaccines, or the process they went through for approval, because they were involved in that process. Trump was even one of the first who took the vaccine in January, and publicly celebrated this.
His negativity on control measures, that right-wing folks echo, meanwhile left Biden with an opportunity; “I know we all don’t like these control measures. Want them gone? Get the vaccine!”
The Biden Administration said this to an extent, but neither Biden nor Harris personally communicated this clearly, because as the Hill article pointed out, they and most members of the Administration kept wearing masks long after getting that vaccine, and would virtue signal the importance of masks for well over a month after.
That was highly miscalculated, especially if what you’re trying to do is communicate incentives for people to follow for why they should get vaccinated. That’s the confusion I’m pointing out, they confused the incentives surrounding the vaccines.
If vaccines don’t = return to normal life, you have seriously diminished why someone would get it. For plenty who aren’t in the at-risk category, it just looks like a risk, with no real upside. You don’t get the thing you want, and there’s only a small chance something will happen.
So why do it?
And again, I also have to bring up that the vaccines are still operating under emergency basis. Where is the final approval?.
Both of these things are within Biden’s control, neither are impeded in anyway by what Trump did or has been doing. And they both contribute to why the vaccination rate is <70%.
He’s not (I admit that’s not straightforward), he’s a member of the NIH, and was at the head of the task force Trump put together to respond to the crisis.
The NIH is an R&D arm, CDC is the public health admin arm. Both are apart of the DHHS. They set policy together in some ways, but I’m not certain how that relationship works or what the give and take is.
If Trump was in anyway pressuring the CDC or FDA, but Blue voters took the Vaccine anyway,
then his rhetoric means nothing as far as the vaccines were concerned. I doubt right-wing voters cared he put pressure on them.
A thread where you spare one line to say “I don’t approve”, then spend 20x as much text space
defending that person from attacks, or crafting a “whataboutism” where you say “if you’re angry about this, you should be more angry about when Trump did…?”
And you think that compares to how I brought attention to Republicans holding back my industry?
Highlighting an actual Republican, not a tangential figure?
Considering you claimed I made up the Facebook issue, the truth of which you could have resolved in 5 seconds if you had tried to check yourself, you have no choice but to own the the fact that you weren’t being introspective or covering your bases.
You rushed to judgement. You were wrong.
This is called spinning, and it’s dishonest CS.
Admit your error 1st of all, and do it without minimizing or deflecting, or spinning.
Albeit imperfectly, I do do this, I suggest you learn to do the same. If you don’t, you just make this a contest for spinning, which leads to warping the conversation.
Take breath, step back, do the right thing in the moment. Put aside rushing to assert your point.
Disinfectants and light are known to kill the virus. Early on we were told we could catch it by touching contaminated surfaces. It wasn’t his idea. It came from the medical establishment. Though it may have been an innocent mistake.
“Hydroxychloroquine”? Oh yes. He most definitely made an appeal for the use of that. It wasn’t his idea either, but was found by various doctors around the world to save lives. How many lives would have been saved if the forces of evil in our medical establishment hadn’t shouted it down? Remember the fraudulent Surgisphere study in the Lancet?
BTW, I understand the death rate in the US today is 22 times that of the death rate in several sub-Sahara countries where malaria is common. It turns out HCQ and a couple other malaria medications are commonly taken and covid deaths are rare.
President Trump was right. He was right about a great many things.
He suggested, and I quote, “Supposing you bring light inside the body?”
LOL, just talking out his rear end.
“Various doctors”? I bet I can find “various doctors” that say that hanging crystals around your neck will cure cancer, or “various doctors” that claim, and this is true, that covid vaccines will make you magnetic.
So the “various doctor” claim is weak.
How about a real study from three doctors posted in the Journal of the American Medical Association?
No, it was withdrawn because the company that provided data would not provide full access to the information for a third-party peer review, saying to do so would violate client agreements and confidentiality requirements, The Lancet said in a statement.
No wait, “various doctors” said it works, your evidence is much better than mine.
You’ve established little more than a statistical correlation, but not causation.
Of course he did and what is written in the article below is EXACTLY what VP Harris was referring to. Thus if Trump had left decisions to the experts and not tried to make it political, it would have stayed there and Harris would have never made that statement.
This rest is just you trying to distract from a very, very simple fact you can’t talk your way out of.
Do you notice how the blue states are more likely to have higher vaccination rates?
You claim rates of vaccination are low because Democrats have undermined the vaccine. B****hit.
They were responding to the fact that Trump wanted to push it through before the election and we know he was twisting arms behind the scenes to make it happen. Fortunately, people understood the long-term risks not only for health but legally and pushed back against Trump.
The idea that Dems are undermining the vaccine and that explains the low rates of vaccination in red states is about the single dumbest thing you’ve ever said, period hands down.
Dems are more likely to listen to what Dem politicians have to say, if you were right the opposite should be true and blue states should have lower vaccination rates.
The fact is Trump undermined his own success in the vaccine by making it political (of course, he makes everything political), failing to encourage people to get vaccinated, and speaking out against people who were making bogus claims about masks and vaccinations.
Now, one very clever thing Trump does is say one thing at his rallies where he knows his hardcore support is and he will say other things in interviews where his supporters are less likely to pay attention. So it’s not hard to find him face to face with a mic shoved in his face where he might say something positive about vaccines, but I challenge you to find the video anywhere of Trump at a rally encouraging people to get vaccines without that statement being political in some way.
The entire Republican party has as a group undermined faith and confidence in experts. And it that fact, though I don’t have it handy I could probably find it again, but people in areas where vaccination rates are low are more likely to get their news from social media.
So please, before you lecture me on personal accountability, admit that Harris saying that she wouldn’t take a vaccine endorsed [only] by Trump, but would take it if the experts recommended it, has absolutely zero influence on what people in red states do. As if people in red states listen to what Harris thinks they should or should not do on anything.
They did not. You’re talking [now] about conflicting timelines, I’m talking about saying the vaccines are bad, or telling people not to take them, or in anyway implying they’d be ineffective.
You thought they did the latter [infact you imply this later in this same post], yet they did not. Operation Warp Speed was pushed through with typical “Trump bluster and cheery messaging” as the very Politico article you posted states.
Trump was pushing for November, the officials were predicting mid–2021, we ended up getting them in January. And apparently, it was done right, as the Biden administration has yet to come back and say “we need revoke the EA or do more trials”. They were even, for a brief period after the election, congratulatory about what the prior administration had done.
Harris didn’t need to make a statement. Harris didn’t need to implicate the entire administration, who apparently did do their jobs, yet she made them anyway. So she was in the wrong.
And yet you made a mistake; you came into this discussion thinking the administration was bad mouthing the vaccines.
You also didn’t dig into those number about who lost confidence in taking the vaccine Politico mentioned pre-November; those were Democrats, who apparently took it anyway.
Republicans, did. not. care. about the FDA intrigue. They still don’t. They were confident the Administration would handle it.
As one of the articles I gave you talked about, Republican vaccine hesitancy post-November, was tied to voting count skepticism. Suddenly, they didn’t trust anything the Federal Government was doing, and they weren’t going to trust the word of a Democrat administration they saw of questionable legitimacy.
An unfortunate side effect of how the 2020 election went, and that the Democrats, once in Office, stopped giving credit to Operation Warp Speed or anything tied to the last administration, and confused incentives for why to take the vaccine.
I didn’t, I said they undermined their own messaging through their actions.
Wearing masks in public long after getting the vaccines confused incentives for why people would take them. “Why get it, if life doesn’t return to normal?” That was a strategic error on their part.
I said they undermined the still-working CDC and FDA through their comments. Which they did.
I said they should have given full authorization to the vaccines to underline their confidence, which would also clear the way for assessing ivermectin.
I’ve mentioned these points about 3 times now. You haven’t addressed them.
They undermined the whole administration. That was going too far.
Remember my saying this:
And this still remains. You can call it “Reacting” but it doesn’t change that they’re saying the word of public health officials could not be trusted before we even had the vaccine. And the average people who reported distrust at the time in the vaccines were Democrats, which flipped the moment the election was over.
He did though? Again, the Biden Administration credited him for doing this while they were still “the elect”, and the communication director did so more recently:
“White House spokesperson Kate Bedingfield on Tuesday praised former President Donald Trump for his early and consistent endorsements of coronavirus vaccine, a rare instance of the Biden administration commending its predecessor.”
Trump was one of the first to get the vaccine, and publicly advocated people to do so.
"Trump, for the first time, encouraged “everyone” to get vaccinated during his keynote speech at the Conservative Political Action Conference on Sunday, but didn’t mention he’d received the shot. “We took care of a lot of people — including, I guess … Joe Biden, because he got his shot, he got his vaccine,” Trump said. “It shows you how unpainful that vaccine shot is … So everybody, go get your shot.”
“Trump has consistently praised the vaccines, even declaring last month that they are “saving the world,””
That’s a different matter. Fauci… has lied twice now, first about masks, then about gain-of-function research, the WHO lied about China for months, and we’re only now seeing real calls for investigation of the lab-leak theory coming from corona virae researchers after several played interference or the racism card.
Some institutions failed pretty hard in the past year. And unlike the vaccines a year ago, we’re already living the fallout, so it’s fair game now to question them.
… Dude, the only thing you have on this forum is personal honor.
You didn’t just call me wrong, you went after me personally. And you did it while you were wrong. And all it would have taken was 5 seconds on google to see I was right. Facebook was blame shifted.
By making it personal, you made yourself responsible.
I’ve given Fantasy chaser plenty of grief on this same point, you don’t get to make a personal accusation and say nothing when it’s proven wrong.
Own up CS. You went further, you made it personal, and you did it while you were wrong.