Trump's steel tariff


#241

Businesses hesitating on hiring people, to wait and see how lobbyists change Trump’s mind, is not generic, that’s real world RET. There’s a whole congo line of exemptions they argue for each time he does this, and it’s a stupid way to introduce uncertainty into our economy.

Meanwhile, Coal Cronyism, does nothing to help us. You cannot say anything to defend this RET. There’s no foreign policy angle to it, it’s just stupid, and cronyist.

However, it’s also indicative of what Trump is doing even when it does come foreign trade; propping things up, when they deserve to fail. Just like Obama and Solyndra.

The latter as you may recall once slapped tariffs on Chinese solar panels to reduce competition; Trump is giving us the same damn story with Steel, played from the other side of the damn aisle.

It makes plenty of political sense for him, but economic sense for the rest of us? That’s a joke.


#242

BS. You conflate solar panels with COAL production? We are the Saudi Arabia of coal! I’ve personally SEEN a coal seam that’s over 200’ thick and tens of miles long in WYOMING, of all places. YOU may think that coal is passe’, but you’d be WRONG. Coal can be gasified and would be the SAVIOR of our industries should oil somehow disappear. Even today, we’re finding out that the deleterious effects of CO2 have been exaggerated by as much as 40% in the “models” of the AGW crowd, meaning that they’ve been CAUGHT lying in order to stop the use of fossil fuels.

BTW, it’s a CONGA line…not a “Congo line.”


#243

You mean the coal that’s being pushed out by natural gas thanks to fracking, and isn’t cost effective anymore?

Yes, that coal.

If coal can pay for itself, why is Trump trying to give them subsidies? That shouldn’t be necessary, if it was still viable.

Then let industry do it. Quit giving them subsides.


#244

You ignore the FACT that the coal industry was almost DESTROYED by the Obama Administration. By GOVERNMENT actions, by the way. Don’t you think the government OWES the industry some small subsidies in order to help it recover?


#245

No.

" A June 2017 National Bureau of Economic Research study estimates that the “declining price of natural gas relative to coal, on an energy-adjusted basis, explains 92 percent” of reduced production.

Furthermore, Steve Huntoon, a former president of the Energy Bar Association, notes in the trade publication RTO Insider that natural gas power plants are more reliable than coal-fired generators with respect to ensuring grid resilience."

Coal doesn’t compete with natural gas, just like Green Energy. Subsidizing the loser in a industry transition, is a bad idea. Consumers should choose, not the Federal Government, and certainly not with my tax dollars.


#246

TRY to be just a bit less obtuse in your posts. The United States is, by FAR, not the only country that relies at least partially on COAL for energy generation. Some…like China, for example…are HEAVILY dependent upon it.


#247

Yeah, I don’t follow what you’re talking about here in context of steel tariffs. I think the president has done a fine job in a number of ways. Just like you’ve discussed here. It doesn’t mean he’s right on tariffs.

If his idea is to get into the heads of other leaders, protectionist policies and screeching isn’t a good way to do it. We lose ground we’ve gained elsewhere. Are you trying to say the president is sacrificing his pawn for some greater good in some psychological operation? That’s some pretty iffy strategy if you ask me.

Meanwhile the price of foreign steel is increasing, and the price of domestic steel is increasing because it can. When the price of the products my wife produces increase, will the foreign entrepreneurs who buy the products continue to buy them or will they turn to foreign-made products? Obviously, I cannot predict this, especially in context of the benefits of the tax cut, but it certainly puts pressure the wrong way (by public policy not market forces) on whether my wife continues to hold her current job. It’s a real world situation, not a textbook question, not academic pontification or a coffee shop discussion.

In the meantime, I was just yapping with two Trump voters (one whose wife works for the same company as mine) who told me they’re happy to pay a little more as long as it’s made in America – Never mind that the product’s already made in America. The president is meddling in our own personal decisions about trade, and the results will be personal, but those populist, protectionist statements are exactly what resonates with these very conservative allegedly capitalist Trump voters. Never forget that the president has been railing as a populist protectionist about trade deficits consistently since at least 1979.

I think you’re reading way too much into Trump’s economic literacy and ability.

I’m happy to cheer him on in those circumstances :wink: I won’t when he stands in opposition to rugged individualism and meddles in my decisions to trade or not to trade with whom I will.

And I am curious why you probably still won’t vote for him in 2020 if you would like to start a thread about it. (It might be fun to see you take the anti-Trump position and argue with everyone who has Trump Messiah Syndrome.) Also I’m sorry I haven’t gone back for a long look and addressed your previous long post. You might notice I’ve not been highly active recently – just short things here and there and checking in. Been too busy at work and on home stuff to spend much time here.


#248

Nobody here that I know of has “Trump Messiah Syndrome”, whatever THAT is. We’re just acknowledging that he’s surprised ALL of us with what he’s doing in OUR interests–lowering our taxes, reducing our regulatory burdens, negotiating trade agreements to OUR benefits, strengthening our military capabilities, defeating ISIS, making friends with former enemies, strengthening our bonds with Israel, thumbing his nose at our AVOWED enemies and showing the whole WORLD that he’s a serious person who is to be taken SERIOUSLY. That’s quite a change from what we’ve had for the past 50 years. JFK was a ne’er do well more interested in his next piece of ass than what’s good for the country–other than his defiance of the Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis. LBJ was a racist moron. Nxon was a leftist in conservative clothing, Carter was a wimpy doofus who GAVE Iran to the Mullahs and even President Reagan allowed the Democrat leftists to roll him with that “amnesty” debacle. Clinton was (and remains) a crook, as is his spouse, Both Bushes were globalists, who didn’t seem to care much about how their idiot policies affected working people, and Obama was a DISASTER–not only for the whole country, but for the free world!


#249

Dave, you have not kept on top of energy development, you’re missing details here:

Coal’s market share started to decline in 2008, Obama’s new EPA rules did not apply until 2015.
2008, is right on top of the shale revolution.

Coal burning plants are dying, because they’re more expensive, than LNG reactors.


#250

That is because you are trying to discuss and or judge “Tariffs” in a one size fits all manner with an absolute conclusion that the result is negative, Tariffs are just a tax and like all taxes they can be beneficial or destructive depending on the type and structure.

Property taxes are always immoral and evil, nothing beneficial in comparison to the caused destruction is gleaned by the taxing of private property. Sales taxes on non essential commodities are however capable of funding necessary government actions that are most beneficial without causing any disruption or hindrance to the economy in comparison to the benefit they can provide to the society as a whole.

All taxes are not equal and neither are all Tariffs.

These are not Protectionist policies, they are targeted tariffs that do not even apply to the greatest importers of the commodity; they are designed to send a message to Nations that are used to the United States acting cautious and fearful of confronting them; this is a FABULOUS way to get through to them and its costs us NOTHING but the doormat reputation that Obama established for us.

Putin has been a major player on the world stage in spite of having no real capacity to wage a war or enough economic capacity to sway any nations Markets, he has done this by convincing everyone that he is willing to do anything and everything in order to get his own way; he is not at all crazy but he knows coming off as a loose cannon with Nukes will get him the respect that his nations capacity simply cannot inspire. This has worked for many world leaders who were a joke, North Korea, The Palestinians, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq and many other crapholes with nothing have been appeased for decades and payed billions by deciding to sell themselves as loose cannons; Trump is the only one who actually has the power to cut off any nation he chooses without fear of domestic collapse.

The world respects strength and boldness when it is fake, they fear and respect it when it is real; Trump is for real and they know it.

He is not sacrificing a “pawn” or anything else, he is letting China and everyone else know that he is under no illusion or misconception that their “big dog” act has any teeth, he is letting them know that the United States holds all the cards and if they want the blessings that are gleaned from doing business with the United States they better have integrity when they compete with us.

He also understands that most people will never be able to comprehend the strategies that are being employed against us by some of our trade partners, most won’t even try so he is uninterested in burying himself in minutia; when you are explaining you are losing.

The price of EVERYTHING is “increasing”, the economic boom has raised demand far faster than supply can keep up; we are WOEFULLY under-built in housing and oil production will require another ramp up to match demand after the lower price slowed the fracking down.

The very idea that one tariff on a minor provider of one commodity is grounds to say that this ONE PRICE is due to this mincemeat tariff while ALL THE OTHER inflation that is occurring in ALL THE OTHER MARKETS is due to the other obvious economic realities is ludicrous.

Blaming this tariff is just an attempt to justify opposition to this tariff, it matters not because China knows that Trump knows they need us more than we need them; they will capitulate and Trump will give them an opportunity to save some face when they do because that is what good businessmen do.

But behind the scenes China will know who the boss is.

They know nothing about this and they never will, those who ascribe rising prices to this tariff whether they support it or oppose it are demonstrably uninformed as to the actual cost of this tariff on the Market in comparison to all the other economic pressure points that are actually altering prices at the wholesale and retail level, they are also impossibly short sighted as to the equity that Trump building for future trade discussions and the requirements that will accompany our future foreign aid.

Trump is laying groundwork for 4 to 8 years, our politicians never look past the next weekly opinion poll and the voters are also just about that shallow; those who change things for the better in significant ways play the long game and they do not let their enemies distract them into playing short. When have you ever seen a falling entity turn around without massive, bold leadership that was condemned by the status quo?

I thought so until I watched him play the world, the Media, Congress and the corrupt bureaucracies that have poisoned Washington for decades; I have no trouble now saying that Trump absolutely understands Market Economics and he knows EXACTLY what has been happening to enable and protect inferior Market models at the expense of superior Market models.

You have been “meddled with” regarding who you can trade with for decades with the government protecting the big players from their most significant competition, either because the government was too stupid to understand how they were being played or they knew full well but wanted to keep the big donor checks coming.

You will be drug kicking and screaming to a more competitive Market and you will benefit from it right along with the rest of the world whether you understand how you were being manipulated before or not.

I won’t be starting any anti Trump threads, we already have more than our quota of suckers doing that and making predictions that prove them fools in short order; right now Trump is the President and he is doing a far better job than I imagined he would do. I am grateful for that because I have 3 kids, 2 Grandkids (and a 3rd coming in June!) plus a whole bunch of nieces and nephews that need a future that is not limited to working for a foreign owned national chain store or service provider or the damn government.

Reagan’s “economic illiteracy” came just as I was entering the workforce and I have parlayed the opportunities that he made available then into many decades of self employment and Liberty in spite of my State doing everything in its power to stamp it out; I will not be a party to helping anyone push this train off the rails just as it is gaining speed.


#251

I guess we’ll see.

I’m well aware of how you, me and everyone else have been manipulated. I just don’t think Trump is any different.


#252

Maybe he’s not “different,” but his “difference” is to the general BENEFIT of America and Americans.


#253

IF what you claim about the coal “market share” is true, then WHAT ON EARTH would prompt Obama’s EPA to undertake the DESTRUCTION of the coal industry? If it was headed downward, why hasten it through “regulation”? The answer, of course, is that coal is one of those resources that we have in abundance and we COULD improve our import/export position immeasurably, which would have prevented the Obama Administration’s efforts to reduce America to 3rd-world status


#254

You’re smart enough to know the answer: speed up the demise, get the dirtiest source off the marketplace ASAP.

LNG adoption is worldwide Dave; everyone is using more of it. Coal meanwhile is declining, globally.

Can’t credit Obama for that. It’s just economics. Like with whale oil, a better answer has arisen.

The only paces it’s rising, is where LNG is for whatever reason, hard to deploy.


#255

BS. Natural Gas is NOT as abundant in the US as coal is and coal CAN be a clean-burning source of energy as we’ve proven right here in the U.S. I realize that the leftists LOVE to demonize coal, but it is not killing the planet as you greenies insist. On top of that, it’s MUCH easier to ship than LNG is and therefore much less expensive to ship to where it’s useful.


#256

It’s not about abundance, it’s about cost of extraction, transportation, operation, and specific energy. LNG reactors are cheaper to operate, and Natural gas has more energy per unit of volume than Coal. That’s just the facts Dave.

If the infrastructure is in place, if it can be cost effectively extracted & transported, LNG will be cheaper, every time, because it’s more effective as an energy source.

You can compare specific energy here, and see the truth for yourself.

Next up the list is Hydrogen, so if we find a way to extract and transport that properly, it’ll replace LNGs in just the same way.


#257

What in the Hell is an “LNG reactor?”


#258

Liquefied natural gas.

Along with fracking, the revolution in Natural gas is being able to affordably transport it in liquid form.
It’s use in liquid form means not only does it have better specific energy than most sources, it’s also more energy dense (and it also leaks less).

And speaking of exports; yeah this has been growing.


#259

No, it’s not. It’s a mixed bag with him, like so many before.


#260

Which doesn’t answer my question about what an LNG “reactor” is.