Was surveillance of Manafort appropriate?


#41

As I understand it there was an effort to make deals but no deal was ever agreed to or implemented.

He was in the middle of trying to make the deal when he said he wasn’t, the timing here is important. That’s a lie.


#42

I think I must have disposed with this accusation of lies since you are changing the circumstances and trying to make it a timing issue - but there is still no deal and no deal pending.

Frankly I think you are grasping at straws in your attempt to show that DJT was telling a lie. All he said is that there is no deal, not that he had not been attempting to make one which you are now accusing him of doing.


#43

Frankly I think you are grasping at straws in your attempt to show that DJT was telling a lie. All he said is that there is no deal, not that he had not been attempting to make one which you are now accusing him of doing.

Drawing straws or you are in denial?

Micheal Cohen admitted that they had dealings in Russia during the campaign, again, something Trump LIED about.

Four months into his campaign for president of the United States, Donald Trump signed a letter of intent to pursue a Trump Tower–style building development in Moscow, according to a statement from the Trump Organization’s then-chief counsel, Michael Cohen.

Then there are the emails between Felix Sater and Cohen where they discuss various things related, one of which, amusingly, was to let Ivanka Trump “sit in Putin chair”. She admits she went to Moscow and toured the Kremlin, but “can’t remember if she sat in his chair or not”. Not that it would be a crime mind you, it’s just, not everyone gets to sit in Putin’s chair (wonder what makes her so special?) because I don’t buy the "I can’t remember BS. That’s code for, “Yep I sure did, but unlike my father and brother, I’m not stupid enough to lie about it, so I’ll just say that I don’t remember.”…LOL

Whether or not there was a deal is irrelevant. Trump said he had "no dealings (a lie) and “I have no deals that could happen in Russia”, also a lie. The only reason the last part is true (something he didn’t know at the time) is that the deal fell through.

Why all the mental gymnastics to keep yourself from having to admit the man is a pathological liar?

He lied in some manner, either in questions he fielded to the press or on twitter for the first 40 consecutive days of his presidency.


#44

Mr Brown you accusations get wearisome and when YOU blatantly lie and continue to change your stories to fit the dialog, the conversation becomes garbled. Donald Trump has NOT lied about anything. He sometimes stretches the truth but that is common for most of us including you. The initial topic was the surveillance of Paul Manafort which did happen and Trump was right because IT WAS at the Trump Towers. Now before Trump began his run for president he continued to conduct business around the world, That is what he does and did then. There is NOTHING ILLEGAL about this and actually is a wise business practice. BUT the liberal snowflake jerks of this country have to make a case about this. He builds Trump Towers all over the world and if it would have been possible he might have negotiated to build one in North Korea. From the beginning of his campaign and all through He did not deal with the Russians . He was busy campaigning. Did his business go on as usual> of course it did, how foolish it would have been had it stopped.
Was the surveillance illegal, ABSOLUTELY first there had to be positive accusations and then a court order based on those accusations. There was neither. This was an illegal act and it continues today. many democrats and law enforcement leaders are culpable and need to be arrested. There is an anarchy within government that needs to be halted and all those arrested who support, abet, or act, in the course of anarchy. Enough is enough.


#45

Mr. Brown I suspect that you and I speak a different language when it comes to occupations. You see I know when someone like Businessman Trump says there is no deal that does not mean that he did not attempt to make a deal. Nor does it mean that one was not pending but fell through at the last minute. It simply means that there is no deal. The mental gyrations you speak of would be trying to make something out of what was said.

To quote you Mr. Brown; “Why all the mental gymnastics to keep yourself from having to admit the man is a pathological liar?” Seems to me that question is better asked of you in your attempts to accept the MSM statements without fully understanding the language.

To put this on a lower plane of events I note for you that quite a few years ago my wife and I looked at some new homes with the intention of making a purchase. We had found one that we liked and did the wheeling and dealing to settle on the floor covering to be installed and the price of the total package. Heck we even signed a letter of intent before the deal was in escrow. Unfortunately, shortly after that circumstances for us and for the builder changed and the deal fell through. Therefore, there was no deal. To make that perfectly clear – There was no deal and there is no deal pending so both parties could make that statement and it is an honest statement, totally true.

Now I grant you that what happened to my wife and me is mini-peanuts compared to Mr. Trump but it is still the same sort of thing. A major difference in principal would be that he, Mr. Trump, has agents who do a lot of the preliminary dealings, my wife and I of course had no such agents, but do not conclude the deal and if the deal falls through, there is no deal. Just the same as on a personal basis.

I suspect that there is a major difference between us also in that I question what the news reports and always do not assume someone is lying just because I don’t like what they said.


#46

Donald Trump has NOT lied about anything.

Donal Trumps lies well documented.

The initial topic was the surveillance of Paul Manafort which did happen and Trump was right because IT WAS at the Trump Towers.

So let’s go through this, shall we?

  1. Did Obama have Trump’s wires tapped? - No

  2. “Obama had my wires tapped…” - No, there was no evidence of an order given to surveil DJT.

  3. Does any surveillance in Trump Tower means that DJT himself was monitored? - No because DJT is not a building. He is a person in a building and it is possible to monitor other people in the same building without monitoring everyone in that building, including DJT.

  4. At best what you might have is incidental surveillance that occurs when Manafort spoke to Trump, but there is no indication (as of yet) that it took place, and even if it did, where the people were in those conversations.

Trump began his run for president he continued to conduct business around the world, That is what he does and did then. There is NOTHING ILLEGAL about this and actually is a wise business practice.

I don’t disagree, but then why did Trump lie about it? Why not just be honest and say, “Yes I’m looking into a project in Moscow”.

He lied and people get suspicious. You keep lying and peoples hair stands up on end.

BUT the liberal snowflake jerks of this country have to make a case about this.

That’s rich.

Was the surveillance illegal, ABSOLUTELY first there had to be positive accusations and then a court order based on those accusations. There was neither. This was an illegal act and it continues today.

And you know this how?

Enough is enough.

Does that include the persecution of Clinton? Because after years of accusations and claims of Democratic stonewalling, Republicans have the government all to themselves. If there were crimes, what incentive do they have not to follow through on indicting her?

Even some percentage of Dems believed there were issues with her email, there is no reason whatsoever not to pursue Clinton, unless those that made hay about this issue know that it will come out that no crime had been committed. For the record, I have no problem with an investigation…Oh, wait, never mind, they already did that.


#47

There was no deal and there is no deal pending so both parties could make that statement and it is an honest statement, totally true.

Except that’s not the way it happened. There was a pending deal when he said there wasn’t, something Cohen has admitted…Period, full stop.


#48

More pointless, irrelevant red herrings. All of it designed to distract from the serious criminal behaviour of the previous administration.


#49

Distract whom exactly? Republicans are in control.

Funny you aren’t willing to take on anything I said, rather your last defense is to dismiss it with a wave of your hand as “irrelevant”. Very telling.

DJT has the lowest approval rating of any modern President, seems there are at least a few people that feel it’s relevant.


#50

I do not know one way or the other. But that little video clip you furnished does not help a bit. How about you show us that Mr. Trump did not have the deal already being cancelled and Mr. Cohen not aware of such an action. Too many questions generated by you and no meaningful answers coming from you.

Also I am interested in knowing if the deal you are speaking of was in the works before the republican convention or started after DJT had been nominated. You seem concerned with timing so please inform me where in the sequence of events did this take place. That video clip I mentioned before did mention one pending deal that DJT cancelled at close to the last minute even though he felt that he did not need to do so.


#51

Mr. (Miz?) Brown is blowing smoke…yet again. It’s telling to me that he(she?) relies on the NY TIMES as somehow “proof” that President Trump lied–next to CNN the WORST of the “fake news” offenders during the campaign…and since. President Trump could cure malaria and the NY Times would accuse him of being responsible for the extinction of malaria trepanosomes.


#52

Mr. (Miz?) Brown is blowing smoke…yet again. It’s telling me that he(she?) relies on the NY TIMES as somehow “proof” that President Trump lied–next to CNN the WORST of the “fake news” offenders during the campaign

Mr.

LOL, when you can’t debate the information, discredit the source.

These aren’t outlandish claims or opinions. The things I sourced are his words, easily fact-checked. If CNN or the NYT were misquoting him, right-leaning media would be all to happy to point out the misreporting as proof of so-called “fake-news”, especially on something so easy to follow up on given that there are original transcripts and video.

You know why there aren’t any stories debunking the links I posted? Because they are true!

Beleive me, if right-wing media actually covered this stuff, I’d be happy to source it there, but they are ignoring it.


#53

Standard leftist response when leftist sources are questioned . . . right out of the liberal playbook.

Also, indicative of the “link wars” that the left is fond of (IOW, my link is better than your link, my expert is better than your expert . . .)

OK . . . let’s play your link wars game.

Ignored by “right wing media”?:

(Not referring to the substance of the articles, but just that, contrary to what you claim, the “right wing media” DID report it. Interestingly, Google buries these “right wing media” sources in later pages . . . another leftist tactic.)


#54

[quote=“BobJam, post:53, topic:54956, full:true”]

Standard leftist response when leftist sources are questioned . . .[/quote]

No Bob… ad hominem is a well established argumentative fallacy:

http://www.csus.edu/indiv/g/gaskilld/criticalthinking/six%20common%20fallacies.htm

Dave was short handing his argument, becaues he didn’t want to go to the effort to discredit anything NYT was claiming.
He wants moral superiority, but he doesn’t want to work for it. Which, oddly enough, is something leftists do.

But him using lazy argumentation, doesn’t give you an excuse to make a equally lazy defense.

Here Gentlemen, is what you should have done instead. From the NYT article:

A reporter for Time magazine — and I have been on their cover 14 or 15 times. I think we have the all-time record in the history of Time magazine.”

This claim is inane; even though his claim was wrong, all it means is that he miscounted, not that he lied.

Take a look at the Pew reports (which show voter fraud.)

One of the tthe studies he was making mention to did in fact list non-citizens on voter rolls. The evidence NYT lays out shows Trump was still wrong about how many non-citizens voted, but that’s not the same as lying.

And that’s the basic problem of NYT coverage; it mixes what are plausible cases of lying, with inane bullcrap, or cases of where he’s just getting things wrong.

It makes everything harder to rationally parse.

Except, he was talking about Trump lying, not simply the Manafort issue.

Right wing media has covered this:



#55

Standard leftist response when leftist sources are questioned . . . right out of the liberal playbook.

Specific sources about specific claims weren’t questioned. The entire article was dismissed out of hand even though each claim was independently sourced.

That’s not an argument, that denialism, deflection, putting your head in the sand.

Far as the links, I know this thread has wandered a bit, but if you actually read the content you’d know that I was speaking to Trumps lies when I said, “Beleive me, if right-wing media actually covered this stuff, I’d be happy to source it there, but they are ignoring it.” , lies that were specifically and individually cataloged, not about Manafort.


#56

Here Gentlemen is what you should have done instead. From the NYT article:

“A reporter for Time magazine — and I have been on their cover 14 or 15 times. I think we have the all-time record in the history of Time magazine.”

This claim is inane; even though his claim was wrong, all it means is that he miscounted, not that he lied.

“Take a look at the Pew reports (which show voter fraud.)”

One of the-the studies he was making mention to did in fact list non-citizens on voter rolls. The evidence NYT lays out shows Trump was still wrong about how many non-citizens voted, but that’s not the same as lying.

Exactly. I won’t make the claim that the NYT or CNN or MSNBS doesn’t slant their coverage in ways that say things that aren’t biased. I didn’t read through every single lie. There’s just too many.

As a group, many are true, many, as you say are, at least partially true.

The problem comes when you have a habit of being untrue, your mistakes are perceived as lies. For what it’s worth, I agree with you, I can’t get in Trump’s head, I don’t know what he’s lying about and what he is mistaken about (your examples), but I think you might agree that if you want the benefit of the doubt in those cases, you have to show moral character. You have to tell the truth when it is inconvenient as person to do so.

When judging a situation and weighing the evidence, humans weigh negatives greater than they do positives.

If I treat my wife like a queen 29 days out of 30 and beat her on the last day, am I a good husband or a bad husband?

If Al Gore makes a handful of false or exaggerated claims in a movie about climate change, even if most of what he said was true, do we trust him?

So I completely agree with you on all counts. The issue is that truth and lies are not weighed the same.

Interestingly, of your two sources, one, I can’t read because you can only read with a scrip, the other does address Trumps lies, but they are simply reporting on a left-leaning source and worse, it’s unconfirmed.

So yes, the right has addressed the issue, that was a broad statement on my part. They certainly haven’t addressed it with anywhere near the same ferver as they do with politicians on the left


#57

MR BROWN: I grow weary of bantering with people who keep quoting disinformation. The New York Times destroyed its credibility years ago and is now on a level with The National Enquirer and the Star, main tabloids of the grocery store set.
Trump can and does blow smoke but there is not one accredited lie. Manafort was wiretapped and so was Trump Towers New York and apparently done by the federal law enforcement on orders of the National Democratic committee based on trumped up charges of Russian influence. All of those charges has since been withdrawn because they were untrue to begin with.
Brown; the NY Times the Washington Post and other so-called newspapers have been corrupted by the neo=socialist crowd and none are reliable sources any more.


#58

Trump can and does blow smoke but there is not one accredited lie.

Trump said:

“The Mexican government forces many bad people into our country.”

Setting aside the question of whether Mexicans who have come to the United States are “bad” or not, there is no evidence of any Mexican policy that pushes people out of Mexico and into the United States.

" Ted Cruz’s father “was with Lee Harvey Oswald” before the assassination of President John F. Kennedy."

“Because I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit.” Trumps claim that counter-protestors in Charlottesville didn’t have a permit.

Now this one is ironic given the several days it took to make a statement with the reason given that (and I’m paraphrasing here) that it was important to collect all the facts, yet here is the permit the counter-protestors.

Just a few of his easier to confirm lies. You set the bar pretty low at one, I gave you 3.

Manafort was wiretapped and so was Trump Towers New York and apparently done by the federal law enforcement on orders of the National Democratic committee based on trumped up charges of Russian influence.

Ok, Manafort was surveilled, yes…

Trump Tower is a big place (86 floors if memory serves), are you suggesting the entire building and everyone in it were surveilled? Or just Manafort’s residence. If it’s the latter, I don’t see the problem, if it’s the former, evidence?

The DNC directed the surveillance? Evidence?

the NY Times the Washington Post and other so-called newspapers have been corrupted by the neo=socialist crowd and none are reliable sources anymore.

Again, each claim in the articles I listed, listed different sources (i.e. not the NYT). Same for the CNN article.

Having said that’ I’ve listed three lies. Can you show me that any of them are wrong?


#59

That business about the “permits” in Charlottesville was TRUE. BLM/Antifa, etc. did NOT have a permit to “demonstrate” WHERE they were doing so. They had a permit to demonstrate at another location, but moved over to where the pro-R.E. Lee statue was located and where the protest was going on against it’s removal. They therefore did NOT have a “permit” to be where the fighting occurred…period. What President Trump said was, therefore, TRUE.

President Trump said that Obama had “wiretapped” us at Trump Tower. TRUE. It doesn’t MATTER whether it was ONLY Mantafort or everyone on the Trump team. Do you REALLY think that would have been done WITHOUT Obama’s knowledge and approval? If so, you shouldn’t ever go out without a keeper.


#60

That business about the “permits” in Charlottesville was TRUE. BLM/Antifa, etc. did NOT have a permit to “demonstrate” WHERE they were doing so.

Of course, they didn’t, the City wouldn’t issue a permit in the same park. The park they had access to protest it was 220ft away.

Here is Trumps comment in context

"There were people in that rally. I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down the statue of Robert E. Lee. I am sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people, neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest.

“Because I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit. So I only tell you this. There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country, a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country.”

Next, Trump said they didn’t have a permit, which is, of course, the lie. Anyone who listened to that assumed they did not have a permit to protest anywhere, which is of course what Trump wanted people to think. Manipulating the facts for your own self-serving purposes is a lie.

What difference does it make if they had permits when they were fighting? Fighting is illegal, it doesn’t make any difference if you are in a “permit area” or not.

As far as Trump Tower.

Why lie about what he said, again this is easy to fact check…

You said he said:

President Trump said that Obama had “wiretapped” us at Trump Tower.

Not what I was talking about…

There is no evidence that Trump’s communication, in any way was under surveillance.