What was the last thing you did for your country?


#41

Who’s to say who’s fully capable of giving consent? I realize the conundrum you’re presenting here, but the fact is that pornographers lick their chops at the opportunity of hornswaggling girls fresh out of high school. It’s illegal to cheat someone out of their money; it’s substantially worse to cheat them out of (or rob them of) their innocence.

How does an arbitrary age make for assured maturity?

I think you underestimate what clever and dirty liars pornographers often are. They’re good at confusing girls so that they don’t know which way is up. Just like most pimps.

Lack of self-responsibility isn’t the only issue (see above). And as I mentioned earlier, many of the girls in porn are sexual trafficking victims who are unable to access the police, are afraid to, or in some (hopefully relatively few) cases, the police are on the take from the pimps.


#42

Then throw on regulations to control for it to mitigate the harm. Beyond that, you have to leave people alone.

Agency is apart of people, and they have a right to exercise it, even if it’s to do things that can harm them.

Forcing pornography underground just makes it all the more dangerous. At the same time, having people who take those risks, and bear the consequences, serves as a useful signal to the rest.

Sometimes, it’s the only way people will learn.


#43

Regarding Pornography
Maybe you are even right when you say some pornographers are using the nativity of some girls – but I think there are also many girls who know what they are doing when acting in porn-films.
Note the circumstance, that there are a lot of free porn channels, where people are exposing themselves just for fun and without pay.

So, I would say some tricky pornographers are indeed evil, but not the whole field of pornography itself.

Regarding Victimhood

O.K. Your point is that girls acting in porn-films are so naive that they do not know what they are doing and forget what’s right and wrong. They are not capable of understanding the actual situation and acting against their will, therefore they are victims of the porn industry.

I don’t see it that way. You receive people – especially women – as naive, dull creatures incapable of realising that something is wrong when someone is persuading them to take clothes off and act naked in front of a camera.
I don’t see it that way. Because I have another conception-of-man. I attribute human beings a much higher extend of self-responsibility and ability to distinguish right form wrong. I belief you as an individual are responsible for your own actions.
If there really are some extra-naive girls in the world, my opinion on them would be: Sometimes you will make mistakes – see it as a chance to learn and to make better decisions the next time.

Let’s conclude a compromise:
For all I care, girls that are acting in porn against there moral conception are victims of both:
Tricky pronographer AND their own nativity and lack of self-responsibility.
And some tricky pornographers are indeed evil, but not the whole field of pornography itself, because there are women in the world who know what they are doing (even in porn-industry).


#44

The only way to mitigate the harm of porn is to eliminate it. I think it needs to be treated like prostitution ought to be, by hammering the instigators with felony convictions, and such girls (and guys) as genuinely know what they’re getting into and are fully complicit with misdemeanors.

No, we can’t eliminate it, and there are some who won’t learn; but again, there’s no excuse not to try. And no, forcing pornography underground does NOT make it more dangerous, anymore than legalizing abortion did the opposite. It’s creating a bigger market (via addiction) for the more abusive forms, including what still is underground (like snuff porn).

By the way, the term “free society” is no justification for this blight. There’s no such thing as a completely free society.

Even if I believed that the naive were in the minority, it’s still a big enough minority to be worth protecting (see my response to Alaska Slim immediately above for how).

I do still insist that ALL porn is evil, because God didn’t create us to be indiscriminately sexually provocative; He created us to be sexual with our spouses, and no one else. Yes, it’s a religious argument, but I’ll argue that it’s a sound one, and our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

I’m saying that predation in the porn industry is rampant, and to one degree or another, most pornographers deliberately confuse, shame, humiliate, coerce, browbeat, threaten, scorn, or otherwise manipulate the girls so that they lose any meaningful perspective.

By the way, their own sense of shame (deliberately inflamed by others) is one of the reasons why many girls won’t report when porn crosses existing legal lines; it’s often the same way with rape and sex trafficking.

No, I don’t see young women as “dull;” I see them (and young men) as impressionable and vulnerable. And evil men will often do their best to see to it that they don’t get a chance to learn from their mistakes in this field.

As noted above, I insist that all porn is evil. I haven’t gone into all the reasons, although off the top of my head, you could add addiction, broken families, and the cheapening of sex as commodities to the list. Compromising the sacred is destructive to a wholesome society.


#45

Slavery was once morally acceptable, but the main defenders of porn seem to be such staunch haters of anything remotely connected to slavery that I’m shocked they are the same ones defending porn.

Just another silly observation.


#46

But you can’t; this is the 21st century where the cost of both storage and proliferation of any media content is approaching zero.

This is equally why music and video piracy can’t be enforced. Proliferation of technology has made it pointless.

The constraints of reality ensure you can’t do this. You need to stop planning a perfect world, and start working within those constraints.

Pass laws about labor practices; I.D. and age restrictions, then hold companies accountable when it’s clear they’ve broken those rules.

If they’re allowed to operate in legal regimes, it’s far easier to police them for these things.

Just to hammer in the point about control ; Guns are a far more capital and labor intensive product to make than Pornography.

How well would laws control those, if you banned them?


#47

A person cannot, by definition, surrender their liberty to someone else, then also be free to leave at any time. Slavery isn’t consistent with individual rights.

With Pornography, you do indeed have the right to do it (and stop doing it whenever you wish); the problem put forward is that some of it may actually be exploitation.

Which means you can solve the problem, simply by regulating it, and holding companies accountable. Just like any other industry. Exploitation of people has been a concern in far more areas of life than just this… basically, it pops up wherever there’s a workforce.

And no, Pornography is not comparable to abortion either: abortion creates a victim every time its done. By definition.

Pornography meanwhile doesn’t have to create a victim, and generally doesn’t.


#48

You apparently aren’t aware of human trafficking’s relation to the porn/prostitution industry. Perhaps also not aware of the hold that many addictive drugs, which are basically force fed to the young girls to help keep them on a leash.

It’s a direct relationship.

No, not every case. Your average magazine from 7-11 probably was legitimately produced. There is an entire underworld of porn though that isn’t.

So yes, it’s comparable. And that’s the last reply from me you’ll get on this subject. Educate yourself with something other than a book. Go volunteer at a police department. I don’t care for your philosophic musings. Reality isn’t as pretty as an airbrushed picture. Get the reference?


#49

It’s overblown:

To the point where you have to ask if people in the DoJ are being stupid, or just blind.

Just yet another sphere of Government responsibility, mishandled.

Yeah; it just isn’t made here. It’s made where the cost of labor and Production is dramatically less, like Eastern Europe. where you also have a ready supply of girls you can far more easily exploit than an American, likely with a corrupt police force you can pay off to look the other way, if there’s any law at all.

Porn is a globalized industry, like any other. And just like with conflict minerals, not all of its “suppliers” are clean.

No—?. You just ignored what I said.

In principle and most times in practice, people can give their consent to do this. That means most of the time, there is no victim. Abortion meanwhile creates a victim everytime. No exceptions. Neither in principle nor practice is there ever not a victim.

You cannot equate this without being dishonest. The baby can’t agree to be aborted, yet women and men can, through their own will, agree to participate in smut.

I personally don’t get why any person would, but it also doesn’t matter. It’s their life, not mine.


#50

Meh, I’ve talked to actual sex workers and activists on this. Because of what they told me, I know plenty of ways of how cops just make things worse, or disrupt their own attempts to stop abuse where it happens.

For you, policing is a hammer, and Pornography is a nail. In reality, it isn’t so straight forward.

Moral crusades over controlling behavior are Progressive, and tend to ignore their actual effects. Hence why I don’t put much stock in them.

They’re about as effective as controlling cup sizes, and just as debilitating to the rule of law as Prohibition.


#51

Apparently you don’t pay attention when someone says they are not discussing a topic further with you.

You aren’t changing your mind. You aren’t changing anyone else’s, either.


#52

Yet you responded anyway.


#53

I already acknowledged that it can’t be stopped altogether. But I also pointed out that it’s no excuse not to try. And it isn’t.

And there are far better reasons to ban porn than privately owned guns.

This is about principle, not pragmatism. And if you just don’t try, you’re telling the victims that you just don’t give a crap.

Bull. Porn ALWAYS creates victims, whether they’re aware of it or not.


#54

You missed the point; if you don’t have a pragmatic expecation of enforcement, then what you end up doing is encouraging the destruction of the rule of law.

If you put laws on the books that can’t be reasonably enforced, people will break them willfully, and encourage them to dispense with other laws. Eroding any power law had in the first place.

A gun law would fail for the same reason; it would instantly put millions on the wrong side of the law, and people would find it so easy to break the law and get away with it, that they would flagrantly ignore it. Encouraging them to ignore other laws.

You can premise on making a perfect world all you want; you cannot overcome the reality technology sticks us with.

Doesn’t matter, in principle, pirating music is wrong.

In practice, it’d be wrong to enforce those laws, because the social cost would be too extreme. You would create victims in the attempt.

You can’t simply argue the principle as it exists on paper; you need to acknowledge the full picture, the full effect of enforcing a law like this, or you aren’t being serious.

Not at all. You can help victims while keeping Pornography legal.These are not mutually execlusive.

And the fact is, it’s more effective that way. You have no control of porn if you force it underground, you at least have some control & transparency if you regulate it.

No, if they give their consent, then there is no victim.

You can’t deny people’s agency in a ham fisted attempt to protect them from themselves.

If you did that, it would have no limitation principle, and Social Engineers would eagerly apply it to people’s diets, gun ownership, or alcohol consumption. Anything that was viewed as not being in the “greater good”, as some central planner saw it.

Power is meant to be restrained. You can’t just use it to fix whatever social ill you have on your mind. You either end up creating tools for tyrants, or erode rule of law.


#55

[Updatet Version]

Wow - This sounds really radical!

First I want to say, if pornography would be forbidden, it wouldn’t hurt me much, because I do not watch it. I do not defend pornography but I defend the freedom of people to make there own decisions.

Even if “God didn’t create us to be indiscriminately sexually provocative” – what I do not believe – why do you care so much about what other people are doing? I mean, if YOU believe this and that, why didn’t YOU just follow these rules? Why are you caring so much about what other people are doing?

I’m catholic, I never watched a porn and I never had sex (not concerning religious reasons) – but in my opinion I have no right to prescribe other people how they should live there lives. And I think I have no right to dictate others, what they have to believe and what they have to do in their bedrooms.

Or they just want to make money!
As I said above: there are a lot of free porn channels, where people are exposing themselves just for fun and without pay. So there has not to be an inevitable external pressure to make people expose themselves. Some of them do it just for fun.
If pornographers coerce people then I would say the behaviour of forcing others is the problem itself. But this can be shown in other (non-porn) fields too.

No, no, no, no! Don’t start to be unfair and arbitrary!
Fist this argumentation could be referred to every aspect of life (alcohol, car-accidents, guns,…). And second you also could reverse it. A self-righteous person could say: “The forbiddance of porn would causes broken families, because people would have more affairs”. As said: Very arbitrary and very self-righteous!

O.K. – No Compromise. Then let’s agree that we disagree!
So, I still think: Some tricky pornographers may be evil - like some car salesman are tricky - I agree on that, but I don’t think that the whole field of pornography is evil. And I do not see people that are acting in porn as victims of pornographers but rather as victims of there own lack of self-responsibility. And I think many porn-actors are no victims in general, because they are acting voluntarily and with a proper realisation of the situation. I think many of them are not participating because they are manipulated but because they want to make money quickly.

You see them as incapable to distinguish good and evil – so you define them as naive. And you are dictating which things should be seen as evil.

But your argumentation would rather match to an islamic sharia-state then to a western, liberty-based society. I think most islamic terrorists would love your positions.

Are there actually other things you see as evil and you want to wipe out too?


#56

BTW–and ONLY in the interest of clarity. The word is “believe” which is the verb form of “belief” and people (plural) have “lives,” not “lifes”.


#57

oh - thanks! I will correct it.


#58

What makes you think that just because a “porn channel” is free that the . . . players . . . don’t get paid? The “porn channel” typically will have revenue from advertisers, or will offer their productions for free to entice viewers to go for the more “kinky” shows that bring out that credit card.

It is either from this revenue that the players will be paid, or from the marketing funds devoted to enticing viewers to pay for more.

In any case, it’s highly unlikely any porn player will do that stuff (plenty of which is disgusting even to them) for no compensation.

You don’t have to be familiar with the porn industry to know this . . . it’s just plain vanilla business practices.

Depends on the facts and circumstances, and also the jurisdiction.

For example, if the “force” exerted is not physical (psychological, perhaps), nor is extortionate, then without evidence of assault or evidence of extortion, most D.A.'s will not prosecute, consequently the police will not arrest, knowing that the perps will be released OR with the charges dropped.

Evidence of assault typically requires at least bruises (though bruises make it difficult to prove . . . see Nicole Simpson case) and a witness to the assault, and for extortion the evidence is a lot more complicated.

Now this is the way it works here in the USA . . . how it works in Germany, I have no idea.


#59

Yah - but at least the extent of manipulation, coerce,… is lower, if you make your own productions. I don’t exactly know if there are also people, who do it ONLY because of self-display. At least some seem to like to masturbate in front of the camera and post it on respective websites (without monetary gain).

In some cases the police indeed can’t help you. But these cases of are not restricted to the field of pornography.


#60

Try to remember that when Seal Team 6 confronted Bin Laden, he was WATCHING porn on his laptop according to those who were there, so I doubt that Muslims are all THAT opposed to it.